01:15 Introduction
Gene: Hello Dave.
David: Hello Gene.
Gene: And now, for something completely different.
David: Right, we are going to do something completely different in this episode. We have guests.
Gene: Yes, we do. We have with us Worshipful Brother Ben Wallace and Most Worshipful Brother Shaun Bradshaw, a former Grandmaster of North Carolina.
David: And they are the authors of the book - “A Path to Providence”, which we discussed in our last episode. But before we get started, as always, I want to remind everyone that Show Notes, Chapter Markers and Transcripts of all of our episodes, are available on our website - WayOfTheHermit.com. Gene, would you introduce our guests?
Gene: Sure. In the last episode, as David mentioned, we went through the book “A Path to Providence” and talked about how Brothers Ben and Shaun addressed many of the problems we discussed in our first season, related to the current state of Freemasonry and the Scottish Rite. And about how they founded the first Traditional Observance Lodge in North Carolina, how they have established a Blue Lodge esoteric education program called the "Middle Chamber", and a Scottish Rite education program called “The Key to the Mysteries.”
David: And as we discussed in the last episode, their book lays out an inspiring vision to revive the mystery school roots of Freemasonry, by promoting the establishment of esoteric education programs like theirs, around the country and throughout the world. So, without further ado, I’d like to welcome our esteemed guests - Worshipful Brother Ben Wallace and Most Worshipful Brother Shaun Bradshaw, welcome.
Gene: Yes, welcome to the show.
Ben: Thanks for having us.
Shaun: Yes, it’s a pleasure to be with you guys.
01:54 Shaun Bradshaw & Ben Wallace
David: Yeah, we’re really glad you could join us. So, your book had some background information about the beginnings of your efforts to start these esoteric education programs, but I’d like to start things off by asking where you point to as the beginning of esoteric work within Freemasonry? And also, were you initial efforts successful? Shaun, would you like to start things off?
Shaun: OK. So, I'm going to go a little ways back.
David: OK.
Shaun: So in 2004, 2004, 2005, 2006, in that time time frame, I served as the District Deputy Grandmaster for the district that my Lodge was in, in North Carolina. And I already had an esoteric leaning and I was looking for others who might also lean towards the esoteric. So I decided to start an esoteric discussion group, which included Mike Daniels, who is one of our instructors, and a couple other guys. And we met maybe three times, once a month. And there just wasn't any energy in it. I could tell Mike was on that path as well, but if there's no energy in it I wasn't going to force it.
Gene: Right.
Shaun: So we you know pulled back from that. And then I'll let Ben pick up at that point, and maybe jump back in.
David: Alright. Ben, you want to take it from there?
Ben: Okay. Over the years through the Greensboro Scottish Rite Valley, we got to know each other and, you know, like recognizes like. So there was a group of us that just kind of migrated together. Spin that forward a few years, and we found ourselves starting Sophia Lodge, which is the first Traditional Observant Lodge in North Carolina, and into that Lodge we pulled a lot of those same guys that had those esoteric leanings, that Shaun was talking about. And then spin that forward a year or two, once we got our sea legs under us, we started doing of a prototype of the Middle Chamber Program just for Sophia Lodge members.
04:53 Esoteric Education
David: We talked about your book that described the “Middle Chamber Program” in our last episode, but when I first read it, one of the things that really impressed me, was your willingness to openly point out the problems that are just apparent, within the Masonry and the Scottish Rite. I felt you said many things that everyone in the Fraternity knows, but no one is willing to say out loud.
Shaun: Yeah.
Gene: Yes. That was refreshing.
David: It was, but my question is - Shaun, if harmony is the chief goal of the Lodge, as they say.
Shaun: Yeah.
David: Does that mean that you aren’t supposed to disagree with anything?
Shaun: To me, maintaining harmony in the Lodge is extraordinarily important, but that doesn't mean you have to be willing to go along with things that aren't relevant to the fraternity. In other words, I think there's a way to nudge the fraternity in the direction it needs to go. One of the things that we were aiming to do, and I think we've had some success with the Middle Chamber Program, is sort of that nudging.
We knew from the beginning that not everyone in the Fraternity today would be interested in this type of stuff. In fact, I was probably a little bit more pessimistic, in terms of how many people would really bite on the Middle Chamber. So it's not necessarily calling out the fault. It's just pointing to a different possibility. Right?
David: Right.
Shaun: You can maintain harmony at the same time you're pointing out a potential direction. And for those who are also interested, they'll sort of migrate towards that. And I think what we're really trying to do here is - it's build that momentum slowly just you know, kind of, going back to the energy, see how much energy we can eventually get out of it .
Gene: So, how did you get any momentum going? I mean, as we’ve discussed, words like “occult” or “esoteric” make many people nervous, how did you get support to form the first Traditional Observance Lodge in North Carolina, dedicated to the pursuit of esoteric knowledge and education?
David: And we should point out that those don’t always coincide. Not all Traditional Observance Lodges are focused on esoteric education, but it is true in this case.
Shaun: Yeah.
Ben: Traditional Observance Masonry doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with esoteric Masonry all the time, but in our case it did. So we were marrying those two concepts.
Gene: Right.
Ben: Um… so as we started, we were all a team, the team that put it together, but Sean and I were kind of the main drivers of this thing. And he being the Grand Lodge guy was more bold than I was as far as using words like “esoteric.” I wouldn't even use the word esoteric. I told everybody to use “philosophical” and “spiritual,” in lieu of the word esoteric. But Shaun’d just come in there and drop “esoterics” everywhere.
Shaun: Uh huh.
Ben: Generally, our mantra was that this was our kind of Masonry. This, the Middle Chamber, this, being Sophia Lodge and our esoteric bent, is the way that we do our Freemasonry. But you don't have to do your Freemasonry like we do, and that's not wrong. That's just your style of Freemasonry.
One of the things that helped us a great deal is the “Widow's Sons” had wanted to come into North Carolina. The Grandmaster at the time said no, but we're going to form some Lodges that are “Motorcycle Affinity Lodges.” And so, there were two or three of these in existence when we came along to form Sophia, and not long after that the Middle Chamber program. And everybody had started to get okay with the idea that there are groups of Masons who build a lodge around an idea, and that idea is not for everybody.
We have one for North Carolina State University and UNC has kind of one. So this idea of the “Affinity Lodge” was starting to take hold in North Carolina. So our Affinity Lodge, weird as it might be to the guys that weren't interested, was kind of just another one of those things that I don't have to go to. And we were very careful about not saying y'all are doing it wrong and we're doing it right.
Shaun: Uh huh.
Ben: It's right for us and theirs is right for them.
David: Yeah. One of the things that jumps out here is just how much patience you’ve had to get this going. I mean, from what you said, the seeds were really planted back in 2004, and that’s, at the time of this recording, 20 years ago.
Shaun: Oh yeah.
Ben: We were patient, patient, patient. We took baby steps. We took it slowly and we kind of steeped everybody in that idea that this is our thing, and it's a good thing, but it's not for everybody.
Gene: So, what was the critical mass, you know, the point where everything sort of gelled to get all of these programs rolling?
Ben: So I was working with the Masonic education committee, we were doing a lot of things, laying a lot of groundwork I knew that we needed to do prior to even trying this. So what started off as a in-house program for Sophia Lodge for our members, then spun up after a year or two into a series of lectures I was doing kind of across the state. Spin that up a year or two, I was chairing the the Grand Lodge Committee on Masonic Education, and that's when we decided to take the program to the rest of the Masons in North Carolina.
And I kind of somewhat of a wild card, but at the same time, they sort of trusted me, but only so much with a program like this. You can imagine if you're a Grand and somebody comes up and wants to do a program like this that doesn't doesn't exist anywhere in the United States, and is labeling itself as esoteric, that you would be afraid of the blowback that it would cause to you personally and to the Grand Lodge, and that's the last thing that anybody wants.
David: Right.
Ben: We knew there were elements that we would have to have to make this thing work. And part of that is having some guys that had a background in Western Mystery Tradition. We had to have guys that could teach in front of people, that's a skill set that not everybody has. We had to have an admin component. And we needed what I called at the time a “heavy.” And the heavy was somebody that the Grand Lodge trusted more than they trusted me, which they trusted me a fair amount. But we needed somebody that was going to make them be able to sleep at night and not worry about the blowback that could potentially come from this program. So as we were dreaming this up as an actual program under the Education Committee, I think getting Shaun Bradshaw on board… were you the Junior Grand Warden, Shaun?
Shaun: Yeah, I was an elected Grand Line officer.
Ben: So, he was part of that establishment. He was a guy that trusted. He was going to be Grandmaster in a couple of years if all went well, which it did. And I knew that when we asked for Shaun to come onto the program, and he showed up, and they were all okay with that, that we had it licked.
David: Yeah, I can see how once you get that level of support, it’s a done deal. Gene, did you have another question?
11:41 Keeping it Masonic
Gene: Yeah. In designing the course work in the “Middle Chamber Program”, you said a key part of the design was to quote-unquote “keep it Masonic”, meaning that the curriculum and discussions were supposed to remain within the bounds of Masonry. But, can you explain what you mean by that? I mean, if Masonry teaches a philosophy of acceptance of all religious persuasions, how can anything really be outside of Masonic bounds?
Shaun: Yeah, that's a great question, and that’s how we keep the Grand Lodge happy. I don't remember if it was me or Ben that came up with that, but it's a mantra for us. And, you know, the reality is, we do touch on the Kabbalah. We touch on alchemy to some degree. But, it’s intended to give the students just enough of the background to be able to see how some of the symbols interrelate across different traditions and different ideas. So that then they can go do their own research, if they if they care to.
But we also realize that some people who attend our classes may be involved in other Western Mystery traditions, or other groups that have some tangential or historical maybe connections to Masonry. And again, in order to stay right with the Grand Lodge, we don't want this to be thought of as a recruiting ground for some other group. That's really what we mean by it. It's not to prevent anyone from talking about any particular religious perspective or anything like that. It’s really just about - we're going to use Masonic ritual, Masonic symbolism, as our basis of discussion.
Ben: We knew if we stayed on Masonic things, and there is plenty of really esoteric stuff in the Masonic ritual, if you just know how to pull it out and hold it up in front of guys of they can see it. Boss, you want to tell them about that last hour or the day?
Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna I was gonna, I was gonna do that. So, the official class… the schedule today is from nine to four, and then from four o'clock to five o'clock, we're done with the official class. But we give people the opportunity to stay behind and ask any question on any topic they care to. But at this point, you know, the people who stay are the ones who maybe are involved in other traditions, or you know at least have an interest in other areas. And for that, it's a free for all. I don't want to get in trouble with anybody, but we actually had a guy talking about micro-dosing LSD as part of his experience. It’s like OK, um… didn't expect that type of discussion, but it's just whatever guys want to talk about. But the reality is again, that is outside of our typical or official program.
David: How have the programs been received in North Carolina. Has there been any kind of backlash against any of the programs, because of them being openly esoteric?
Shaun: I'm not aware of any, at least overt, backlash. I think the guys that aren't interested in it, a lot of them probably don't even know of it, outside of its name. In terms of how it's been received, I would say, you know, I thought we might get 10 or 12 guys in the first year. I think we ended up with 30 or 40 guys. And I was like, “wow!” I've tracked the metrics with it, and roughly, just over one percent of the members in North Carolina, at least up to this point, have attended one or more sessions. And my goal, my personal goal, is that there is at least one person in every lodge who has attended and/or graduated the Middle Chamber Program.
And that goes back to something I say all the time - “each one teach one”. If we have within every Lodge someone who has been exposed to this type of esoteric thinking, and it doesn't necessarily have to come from the Middle Chamber Program, but it's a good place to start. But if every Lodge has someone like that then when the next guy comes in, when Gene and David come into that Lodge, they're not the only esoteric guys. There's somebody else there that they can have an affinity with, that they can talk to. Someone who knows a little bit more, and can tie things together within Masonry for them.
Gene: That would be really good.
Ben: Yeah, I want to add something to that.
David: Sure Ben, go ahead.
Ben: Most of the guys that have gone through the program are younger guys, for whatever reason. But we're also losing members that don't come to the program, our season veterans, at a pretty rapid rate. So not only are our numbers increasing, but the numbers of the guys that don't have an interest in this are decreasing.
When I came along you would not utter the word esoteric in Lodge. That would not be well received in in my home Lodge. And it's still that way and a bunch of Lodges, but this is the way you change a culture. As as these guys increase that have been through the Middle Chamber program, and are into this philosophical and spiritual aspect of Masonry, and the, I don't want to say grumpy old guys, but the grumpy old guys, are decreasing, eventually there's going to be a day when the esoterically minded guys can have some influence in their Lodge.
Gene: I look forward to that day.
Ben: So, what we’re doing is, on one level is, we’re changing a culture, or at least we’re starting that.
Gene: Right.
Gene: And, it’s a shift that I see coming in Masonry over the next couple of decades.
17:25 The Key to the Mysteries
David: We’ve been talking so far about the Middle Chamber Program, which is directed at the three degrees of the Blue Lodge, but you’ve also started another esoteric education program called the “Key to the Mysteries,” which discusses the degrees of the Scottish Rite. When did you start this program and where does it stand?
Ben: I don't exactly recall when we started that, but I recall that it was a COVID thing. We had a little time. And I'd always wanted to do something like the Middle Chamber Program for Scottish Rite. But that model was not going to work, because there's 29 degrees, and they go on forever, and that would be more of our time than we could actually give doing that in person. So the next best thing was to just do like this, kind of a podcast style discussion. And it started with Shaun and I. And, so we would each do our own research, we would come together, we would talk about the degree. And it worked well until we came up out of COVID, and then we all got busy again. And so we're somewhat stalled on the 27th degree, but but we'll get there. We're fixing to get started again. As you guys know well, it takes a long time to uh… to do the research for those things. And then you got to shoot it and edit it, and it's a lot of work. Shaun?
Shaun: I think Ben, you and Andre actually kicked it off, but he got quite busy and needed to step back. So, I was more than happy to to fill in and and do the research along with Ben and aid in building the materials. Administratively though, similar to the Middle Chamber Program, stuff like this, you've got to have the blessing from the hierarchy that exists and so, I contacted our SGIG at the time who was Dr. Bill Bronk and let him know what we were what we were doing. I assured him that we have tight controls around these materials. And you have to sign up through the Valley in order to gain access. So with that assurance*,* Dr. Bronk was very good with it.
He was in the process of retiring, our incoming deputy now SGIG Gene Cobb, is a close friend of mine. He and I served in the Grand Line together. And I let him know what we were doing and he has continued to bless that program. He was also Grandmaster when we actually did the first Middle Chamber Program. He came to the very first one. Ben what else you want to add to it?
Ben: I think you alluded to this but just to to put a nail in this, it’s only open to Greensboro Valley Masons. And then we brought in a guy from the Charlotte Valley, one of our neighboring Valleys, to help because we were just running out of steam. And so now it's Charlotte and Greensboro But ours unlike yours, our is not open to the public.
Shaun: Right.
David: Yeah, we tried to steer clear of most of those issues by just staying solely with what is in print and freely available, but we did talk to some of our friends in Nashville to test the waters, so to speak, before we started doing our podcast.
Gene: And also, we weren’t trying to do anything official, our main focus was on trying to understand the rituals and symbolism ourselves, and to encourage others to study the material for themselves.
David: Right. And, you know, Gene and I didn’t know much about the degree rituals really beforehand, we’d only seen a few of them performed a couple of times, but after studying them for the podcast, we felt that we felt that we got to know them pretty well. Was that your experience as well, in researching the degrees for your education programs?
Ben: Yeah, so there certainly is a personal factor in this with both the “Middle Chamber,” and the “Key to the Mysteries”. It makes you become a subject matter expert in all of the things that you do all the research on. So, I knew the degrees somewhat before we started doing them. Some of them I knew pretty well. Some of them I’d seen occasionally. Some of them I’d never seen, just like you guys. But all of a sudden, when you do eight or ten hours of research on one, and then talk it out on a podcast, you know a lot about that degree.
Shaun: Uh huh.
Ben: So it's a way for us to learn the degrees.
Shaun: Uh… Greensboro up to this point had never done all the degrees. There's a number of degrees that the Greensboro Valley had never done at all. And one of the things that I really wanted the Greensboro Valley to do, was perform every single degree, all 29 degrees. So, what we were trying to do with the program was really twofold to learn for ourselves, but also as we're learning to provide more esoteric explanations from our perspective to the brethren. And also, I was wanting to build some energy around or excitement around, doing all 29 degrees, even if it was just, you know, a few core of us. And so in the fall of 2022, Greensboro finally did all 29 degrees. It took more than a month.
Gene: Wow. That is really cool.
David: Yeah.
Gene: It would be so interesting to see them performed back-to-back like that.
22:20 The Inner Chamber
David: Yes, it would. So, there was one more program that you’ve created called the “Inner Chamber Experience”, that is alluded to in sort of mysterious terms in your book. It’s described as something of a revival of the Ancient Mysteries within Freemasonry. What exactly is the “Inner Chamber Experience?”
Ben: So the “Inner Chamber” is the capstone program of the “Middle Chamber.” So you have to have gone to all three of the sessions of the “Middle Chamber” in order to be able to qualify to go to the “Inner Chamber.” And if you want to go do that capstone program, then you have to write an essay. And and we will cap the number of people that we're bringing in, although we've never had to cap it. We never had that many that wanted to do it. They have to pay another fee.
We take them to the Children's Home in North Carolina, which is this fabulous really old beautiful campus. And we do essentially a weekend retreat. And in that retreat we give them several series of lectures. We give them a really in-depth esoteric look at the Hiram Legend. We do some guided meditations. We talk about theurgical practices in Freemasonry. And then we do the culmination of the thing, is a Lodge exercise. And essentially, we do what Chuck Dunning has written out in his book “Contemplative Masonry.”
Gene: Ben, could you say a bit more about what that exercise entails. I know it involves a visualization of the Lodge as a representation of your psyche, but that’s kind of a common theme running through all of the books you selected for the curriculum, isn’t it?
Ben: Yeah. There's just a genre of Masonic books that are on philosophy and spirituality and they have similar characteristics. Wilmhurst’s “The Meaning of Masonry” was my first introduction to the Lodge, in that philosophical and spiritual sense. Kirk McNulty's “The Way of the Craftsman” was that same ilk. And in “The Way of the Craftsman,” it talks about the Lodge as a model of consciousness. So that when we come into the Lodge, we're coming into our own self, into our own consciences, and our own divine center. So we started using books that had that mindset.
David: You said in your book that this experience was actually available to everyone, but that the keys that unlock its mysteries are concealed and revealed in our rituals. What did you mean by saying that the experience is available to everyone?
Shaun: To answer your question directly, because the the Lodge exercise that we do, actually is written out in in Chuck's book, anyone could do it. You could do it just completely in your own mind. In fact, that's how Chuck talks through it in in the book. What we've done is we've actually physically set up the space, and then you're interacting within that space, but it's still done mentally.
David: OK. But, just to be clear, the “Middle Chamber Program” is available to any Master Mason. They can sign up, pay their fees, come and take the classes, and then, if they complete that program, then this “Inner Chamber Experience” is available to them, too?
Shaun: Yes. Yes.
Ben: Anybody that's uh…
Shaun: Regular.
Ben: Yeah.
Shaun: Recognized.
Ben: That’s recognized by our Grand Lodge.
Shaun: Yeah. In fact, we've had out-of-state Masons attend and we validate or verify their membership.
David: OK. And I’ll put contact information in the Show Notes. I’d like to read a quote that we read last time, but it talks about the “Inner Chamber” exercise. It says - "The Lodge room was empty yet they were met by the inner officers of the mind which they've been told to expect. In this higher state of awareness they received answers ordinarily out of reach. The answers were always there but only seen through a glass darkly. But in this different state of consciousness made possible through preparation, the answers came easily… the experience without a doubt was one of a different constitution than normal thought…. The experience was mystical for many and profound for all. If we weren't such pragmatists we'd say magic returned to Masonry that day. Students reported extraordinarily profound experiences previously unimaginable to them. They stood at the altar as true initiates." Shaun, I know you participated in the first “Inner Chamber Experience”, and we’ve talked about how transformative you found it.
Shaun: Yes.
David: Would you share at least part of the “Inner Chamber Experience” that you had?
Shaun: The first “Inner Chamber” that we did was in 2019 in October. I had just been elected Grand Master in September, and in North Carolina when you are elected it's not until December that you're installed. So there's a couple months of prep time that you get between the election and installation.
Ben had approached me about helping him co-author the book that we wrote, “A Path To Providence,” and I told him “no.” I told him I was going to be too busy with, you know, being Grand Master. I didn't want to hold it up. I felt like it was more of his story to tell anyway, since he had been involved with the creation of Sophia.
But then, I went into the into that Lodge exercise. And we we tell the guys you need to go in with a question already in mind. And it… it needs to be kind of a big question. It needs to be something that's really weighing on you.
And and I went from station to station, and I asked the same question. Each step along the way, I… I just felt these waves of emotion and energy. And I started crying, when I heard the answer that - being the grand master is not one year. There's more to it. There's more opportunity beyond the one year as Grand Master in North Carolina. And… and I came out of the program and I don't think I spoke to Ben right after about this, but maybe within a week or so, I said “Ben, I'll help you. I'll help you write the book.”
What I realized was that my time as Grand Master, I would have a certain amount of authority, but the time after that I would have maybe more influence. I could continue to influence things. And had it not been for that Lodge exercise, I don't know that I would have made the same decisions I made since then. So yes, quite profound.
David: Shaun, thank you for sharing that. Gene, do you have another question for our guests?
29:01 Outreach
Gene: Yes… uh Shaun, the book mentions that you're working to help several other states start their own esoteric education programs. Can you share a little about what you’re doing to expand the outreach of your programs across the United States?
Shaun: Well, we kicked it off in Illinois, and learned some lessons from that.
Gene: What kind of lessons?
Shaun: That If we're going to introduce the “Middle Chamber Program” to other states, we can't rush it. One of the things that makes the “Middle Chamber Program” work in North Carolina, to Ben's earlier point is, you have to have the right mix of people. You got to have a leadership person, someone who's respected by the Grand Lodge. You need someone who's very esoteric. You need good presenters, really good presenters, people who know how to facilitate the discussion. And then you need more than one of all those people, because you can't be everywhere all the time. And we happen to have a good mix of that in North Carolina. Not every location's going to have it, at least not all at the same time. And so I think that can be a little bit of a hindrance to starting one of these programs in other jurisdictions.
So, that's that's one thing - we can't rush the the program, the content of the program.
Gene: Yeah, that makes sense. What other states have you worked with since Illinois?
Shaun: Since then we've worked with the Grand Lodge of Texas. I’ve had several discussions with Oklahoma. My understanding is that Most Worshipful Bob Davis, who you know, we alluded to earlier as using his book. Brother Bob used some of our materials and some of the materials from his book. And he has a program going there. And the Grand Lodge of Missouri. Missouri, my understanding is that they actually have the program built and ready to go.
Gene: So what kind of help are you guys willing to provide to other states that would like to set up esoteric education programs like the ones you’ve set up in North Carolina?
Shaun: Our instructor core are willing, uh… happy to travel. All we ask is that the jurisdiction cover, or at least help cover, the bulk of our travel costs, and we we will volunteer our time to come out and speak. But yeah, we would we would be happy to provide some materials as well as our own time and effort.
David: What about on a smaller scale? I mean, what about people who just feel isolated, as far as esoteric things go, but would still like to get involved in this movement?
Shaun: Some of our graduates that are located in one area, actually started an esoteric discussion group in their district. And… so, the reason I mentioned that is, if there's a Lodge or a group of guys in an area who have this interest, even if it's not jurisdiction wide, as long as their grand jurisdiction doesn't have a problem, Ben and I, we've traveled to some other Lodges in other states and just given presentations. In other words, it doesn't have to be done at the Grand Lodge level. So if any of your listeners are thinking, oh gosh, you know, this sounds like a really big thing, and you know, I don't I don't know all these people to be able to, you know, pull it together. But it could be done if you have the right handful of people at a Lodge level or a district level even.
32:32 Closing Thoughts
David: Shaun, what do you see as the role of Freemasonry in society today?
Shaun: So, first off, I think our fraternity has a real role to play. Men in America today are in a situation where… there's a there's a big question today about - what does it mean to be a man? What does masculinity mean? And that was that was the proper role of the Lodge decades ago - you know the father, and the son, and the uncles, and the grandfathers. There was sort of this tradition that went through. And it was a place where each generation of men could help the next generation of men understand what being a man meant In our society. And we've sort of lost that. And I think men especially need something like our fraternity. And maybe not something like, but exactly what we have in our fraternity. Now let's veer into the esoteric.
David: OK.
Shaun: While the fraternity offers guidance around basic moral values, opportunities around charitable giving, and just the the value of service to others, as well as potentially some leadership training, and things like that. I think more importantly, when viewed from an esoteric perspective, it allows us to look at ourselves in a different way. If you pay attention to the ritual, and this is what we sort of teach in the Middle Chamber Program, at each step, when you are being asked “Who comes here?,” it's not a question about what your name, or what your outward appearance is - it's about who you are inside. And if you're really paying attention, at some point you're going to have to spend some time In the rubbish of your own Temple, working through what created that rubbish, how you're going to clean it out, and hopefully, eventually, be able to rise out of it, and be the true person, or the best person you can be.
I might have been on a little bit of a soapbox there, and I apologize but… but that that's that's my thoughts on it.
David: No, that’s what we want, your real thoughts. Ben, I had one more question for you. What do you feel has been the most rewarding thing for you, in all of this work that you’ve done to basically spearhead an esoteric movement within Freemasonry?
Ben: So David, it's always it's always rewarding when one of the students will come up and tell us you've changed my life, or this program changed my life, or you know, I see things a completely different way. Those are always super good. You know, they're motivations that keep you going. But, I think the thing that makes me most proud is this - I can see so clearly, that Masonry in it's drawdown is, we're just in free falling numbers nationally. And Masonry is not going to be your grandfather's Masonry in another decade or two. It's going to be completely different our numbers… we don't know where they're going to level off, where the floor is, but we're not there yet. And the Masonry that comes out of that, is going to be different than the Masonry we have today. It's absolutely going to. And somebody, some humans, some Freemasons, are going to have a hand in shaping what that looks like. And we think that we are some of those Masons.
What we've started here is going to grow, and it's going to be an important part of the shift. And I think that the new Masonry is going to be much more focused on the spiritual and philosophical and esoteric aspects. And I think they're going to be fewer Lodges and those Lodges are going to have to charge more money. But you're going to have Lodges that have philosophically and spiritually minded Masons that are paying a lot more money to be a Mason in smaller groups. And that is going to be a good thing, and it's not even a new thing, it's kind of a return to where we started.
So, it's where we're going and somebody's going to have a hand in shaping it. And not only do we have a hand in it by starting it, if anybody is listening to this podcast, they can have a hand in it, too. Because all they have to do is start either working with a program in their area, or even if it's a small program like Sean was talking about, a little district program, or just within your Blue Lodge. Or just getting some of your Masonic buddies together and going through Bob Davis's book and doing a book study on it. At whatever level you think you can operate, you can be part of the change.
Gene: Boom.
Shaun: I… I don't know that I really have anything to add to that.
Ben: Keep hope alive! Sprinkle it with some magic dust and see what happens…
David: Alright. Thank you guys for being with us. We really appreciate it. It’s been great!
Shaun: Yeah. Great. Thank you guys.
Gene: We sincerely appreciate the work you’re doing.
Shaun: Thank you Gene. Thank you very much.
Ben: Thanks for the opportunity.
Shaun: Yeah. This was a fantastic opportunity. Really appreciate it.
37:39 Concluding Remarks
Gene: Man! That was amazing.
David: It was. So, do you want to do another interview next time?
Gene: No… but I did really enjoy talking to Ben and Shaun.
David: Yeah, I feel the same way. So, what are you thoughts before we end here?
Gene: The term “tip of the spear” keeps coming into my mind. You said something to Ben about “spear heading” this effort, but it just feels like they are really at the forefront, the "tip of the spear", of a real esoteric movement, within Freemasonry.
David: They’ve convinced me, too. And what impresses me the most about it, and about them, is how selfless they are about it. To me, and it’s because of my dad’s example, that’s what being a Mason means - doing things selflessly and without hope for personal gain or reward, beyond just knowing that you’re doing, is what’s right.
Gene: Yeah.
David: If the reason that you do good works is to get a fancy title, or recognition from people, or to get your picture in a newsletter receiving an award, then in my opinion, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.
Gene: That just means that you’ve chosen the material reward over the spiritual one. You still want to “appear to be” or to “seem”, instead of actually wanting to “be” what you claim to be.
David: Exactly. And that’s why I’m glad we had them on the show and had a chance to tell people about what they’re doing, because they aren’t self-promoters, and they aren’t in it for money or fame or anything like that.
Gene: No, they aren’t.
David: I’ve listed their contact information in the “Show Notes.” And I’ll just say this to our listeners - whether you are a Mason, or in the Scottish Rite, or just someone interested in the esoteric or in personal introspection and growth - I think the book “A Path to Providence” is inspiring. It gives me hope to know that there are actually are some people who care, people who think deeply about themselves and the world. And some of those people, like with Shaun and Ben, are working selflessly and tirelessly, trying to make the world a better place… just because it’s the right thing to do.
Gene: Amen brother!
David: Alright, I’m done. Anything else before we wrap up?
Gene: Just one more thing - I told Shaun that I felt that they were putting the “flesh back on the bone,” so to speak.
David: What did you mean by that?
Gene: You know, the flesh that has slipped off the corpse. It has to be replaced for the body, the Masonic body, to be resurrected, brought back to life again. It’s like, they’re preparing the way for what’s to come. A new kind of Masonry, a more spiritual and philosophical Masonry, that connects to the core, the bone, of what Masonry is supposed to be about.
David: Yeah. And that’s a good place to end. We’ll be back in our next episode to begin discussing the Gnostic roots of Freemasonry’s core teachings. Until then. I’m David.
Gene: And I’m Gene. Join us next time, as we continue to walk, the “Way of the Hermit”.
