01:15 Introduction
   
Gene: Hello Dave.
   
David: Hello Gene. How are you doing today?
   
Gene: Doing good. I’m looking forward to our discussion today.
   
David: Me, too. But, before we get started, as always, I want to remind everyone that Show Notes, Chapter Markers, and Transcripts for all of our episodes are available on our website - WayOfTheHermit.com. In our last episode, we began our discussion of the Gospel of Thomas and covered the first 23 of its 114 sayings. In this episode, we’ll cover the next 23.
   
Gene: Where do you want to start?
   
David: Before we start, I wanted to mention a comment that we got that basically said that it sounded like we were trying to combine all of the religions into one.
   
Gene: That we are? Or that the Gnostic texts do that?
   
David: That wasn't clear, but it did make me think that that is actually the goal. It's the way the Bible ends. One Temple for all people.
   
Gene: Which, is the shared mystical dream, regardless of culture, that the underlying truth of all the religions, will someday finally be realized by everyone.
   
David: I found a verse from the Bible that seems to be about that idea. It’s Ephesians 4:13, and I'm going to read two translations of it. First, here’s the King James translation - “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”
   
Gene: Hmm. That sounds like what we’re talking about, but I’m not exactly sure what it’s saying there.
   
David: No, me either. But here’s a different translation that leaves some of the Greek words intact - “It is inherent in our faith, that in the end, we will all attain Oneness through Gnosis of God’s Son, becoming fully initiated human beings, equal to nothing less than the Pleroma of Christ.”
   
Gene: Yeah. Wow. That is talking about everyone under one umbrella. Where did you get that translation?
   
David: From the book “Jesus and the Lost Goddess: The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians.” The key words that changed were Gnosis being translated just as “knowledge,” in the King James version, and Pleroma as “fullness,” but you lose a big part of the meaning.
   
Gene: We talked about this problem in relation to the Secret Gospel of John. It shows how the meaning gets lost in translations, and over time.
   
03:41 Review
   
David: Right. So, as I said earlier, we covered the first 23 sayings last time, and we’re covering the next 23 today.
   
Gene: And the sayings are mostly independent, so they don’t really build on each other.
   
David: No, they don’t. But they do all speak to three levels or worlds, which are the spiritual world, the Pleroma, then the realm of the Soul or Mind, which is called Heaven, and finally, Earth, the physical world.
   
Gene: In some traditions, like the Western Magical Tradition, there are four worlds, that relate to the four elements - fire, air, water and earth.
   
David: Right. The Gnostic system of three worlds is more like the alchemical or Hermetic systems of Sulphur and Salt with Mercury in-between. But, in the Gnostic system, the Mecurical part, the mind or soul, has a dual aspect.
   
Gene: Like the two aspects of Sophia.
   
David: Yes, a virginal one, that’s untouched by anything physical, pure cognition, which you could associate with Air. And another aspect that’s fully immersed in the body, the Water aspect, feelings and emotions, which correspond with chemicals and electrical signals in the body.
   
Gene: Cool. Are you ready to dive in?
   
04:57 Sayings 24-26
   
David: Yes. We’re starting with Saying 24, which says: “His disciples said: "Show us the place where you are, because it is necessary for us to seek it.” He said to them: "Whoever has ears should hear! Light exists inside a person of light, and he shines on the whole world. If he does not shine, there is darkness."
   
Gene: Jesus is telling them to stop looking outside and look inside themselves, because if they don’t find it there, they won’t find it anywhere.
   
David: And the “it” that they are looking for is the voice of Jesus, the voice inside that knows, once it’s been awakened. And also, they’re being told to act on what they’re told, to share their “light,” their understanding, with the world.
   
Gene: That’s good. Saying 25 is - “Jesus says: Love your brother like your life! Protect him like the apple of your eye!"
   
David: That’s like 1 John 4:20 that says, “If a man says, 'I love God,' but hates his brother, he is a liar: for if he does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?”
   
Gene: People being a manifestation of the Divine, in the flesh. Like the greeting “Namaste,” which, at least according to some interpretations of it, is honoring the divine presence in each of us. Atman, the individual consciousness, that in Hinduism is an expression of the universal consciousness, called Brahman.
   
David: Right. It’s talking about seeing the unity in multiplicity, the shared consciousness and associated suffering that we all share, just by being human.
   
Gene:  Which is called “Christ Consciousness,” in some traditions.
   
David: Yes. And the part about treating others as the “apple of your eye,” it’s talking about the core of not the physical, but spiritual eye (singular), it’s the spiritual perception that’s supposed to enable you to perceive the divine presence in others.
   
Gene: So it’s saying to hold that perception dear, or to keep it sacred. We’re all human beings who suffer, and are worthy of the same dignity and respect, that we would hope to receive ourselves.
   
David: Exactly. Saying 26 is one many people have heard from the Bible, but it builds on that last one. It says, "You see the splinter that is in your brother’s eye, but you do not see the beam that is in your (own) eye. When you remove the beam from your (own) eye, then you will see clearly (enough) to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye."
   
Gene: It’s easy to see other’s faults, but it’s much harder to see your own.
   
David: In Zen Buddhism, individual awareness or perception is likened to a mirror, and you’re told to polish the mirror, to remove the things that obscure your vision of yourself and the world.
   
Gene: Basically, stop criticizing other people and instead, focus on cleaning up your own house.
   
David: Right. Put the oxygen mask on your face before attempting to help other passengers.
   
Gene: Yeah.
   
David: Do you want to read the next one?
   
08:01 Sayings 27-29
   
Gene: Sure. Saying 27 is "If you do not abstain from the world, you will not find the kingdom. If you do not make the Sabbath into a Sabbath, you will not see the Father."
   
David: That saying relates to the dual aspect of the Soul or Mind that we talked about. If all you do is indulge your material desires, and ignore your spiritual side, then you’re not going to be able to unify yourself. It’s just cause and effect. It’s what you spend your time paying attention to - purely material things, or philosophical slash spiritual things.
   
Gene: Right. You have to make time for it, which is what the last part that says “making the Sabbath into a Sabbath” is about - creating some sacred space in your life.
   
David: And also, just holding something sacred. Which has a cumulative effect, because having a spiritual practice develops your capacity to experience the sacred, which allows you to go deeper.
   
Gene: Which only makes sense. You get better at things that you devote your time and attention to, at the expense of the things you don’t.
   
David: That’s right. And the next saying reinforces that idea. Saying 28 - “Jesus says: "I stood in the middle of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found all of them drunk. None of them did I find thirsty. And my soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their heart, and they cannot see; for they came into the world empty (and) they also seek to depart from the world empty. But now they are drunk. (But) when they shake off their wine, then they will change their mind."
   
Gene: It’s saying that people are drunk with material concerns and desires, and not thirsty for self-knowledge or spiritual knowledge. In other words, not looking for Gnosis.
   
David: Yeah, and also trying to dull the senses and mind and stay distracted, basically, from the existential terror of being alive.
   
Gene: And that’s such a simple but glaring truth, that none of us want to really think about - it’s easier just to stay asleep, and take the “blue pill,” so to speak.
   
David: It’s like there’s a part of the mind that doesn’t want the burden of self-awareness, and tries all the time to extinguish it. Again, the duality inherent in the mind, like two horses pulling in different directions.
   
Gene: “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
   
David: Which leads to Saying 29 where “Jesus says: "If the flesh came into being because of the spirit, it is a wonder. But if the spirit (came into being) because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has taken up residence in this poverty."
   
Gene: That’s a rejection of the materialist argument that consciousness arises from matter.
   
David: Yes. It’s saying that consciousness is primary. That consciousness, of some kind, is the organizing principle that expresses itself in physical laws and things.
   
Gene: You know, the idea of consciousness being the primary organizing principle, is gaining traction in quantum physics, with consciousness perhaps being the key to creating a “Theory of Everything,” that unifies Newtonian Physics and Quantum Mechanics. What was that video you sent me?
   
David: It was a video by “Federico Faggin on Idealism, Quantum Mechanics, Free Will, and Identity,” which I’ll link in the “Show Notes.”
   
11:32 Sayings 30-32
   
Gene: I thought that was great. Anyway, I thought the next saying was very interesting. In Saying 30, ”Jesus says: Where there are three gods, they are gods. Where there are two or one, I am with him."
   
David: That sounds like one of those puzzles where you have to figure out how someone is their own brother-in-law.
   
Gene: It does!
   
David: But, it’s talking about the “Three Worlds” and the progression - three, two, one. Three is the material world and the physical body, where there seem to be two competing principles.
   
Gene: Flesh and spirit again.
   
David: Yes. And Christ serves as the mediator, the voice to be awakened. That’s the three.
   
Gene: Ah, I see where you’re going. Two corresponds to the duality we’ve talked about in the realm of the Soul, the upper and lower parts that have to be brought together.
   
David: Right. And on that level, it's the Sacred Marriage, with Christ as Bridegroom, in Christian mysticism. And then, in the final stage, the duality is resolved into Unity - the Father and the Son become One.
   
Gene: So, it’s basically describing the three stages, or degrees, of Gnostic initiation.
   
David: It is. The next saying, Saying 30, many people have heard, a version of it is in the Bible - Jesus says: No prophet is accepted in his (own) village. A physician does not heal those who know him.
   
Gene: That’s like in the Bible when Jesus goes back to Nazareth. They basically say - “Hey, isn’t that the carpenter’s son? What does he know?”
   
David: They can’t see him as anything but that. But if you said something like, “I was deep in Amazon jungle and came across an old Shaman who told me a secret!”
   
Gene: Oh, now you’ve got my attention!
   
David: I know. But, think about this, do you really believe that an actual apostle of Jesus named Thomas wrote this book?
   
Gene: Good point. But, even if it’s not true, the belief that it is true, or maybe, as good as true, makes it more meaningful, and more likely to be beneficial.
   
David: It might create an opening, where you actually listen to it and give it more consideration.
   
Gene: It’s why people claim ancient lineages for their groups. Like the “Golden Dawn” cipher manuscripts.
   
David: People are usually more willing to believe a quote-unquote “expert from afar,” or some mysterious anonymous stranger, than someone they know, and know some of their faults.
   
Gene: You know, there’s not many people that we know that listen to our podcast.
   
David: There’s a few. But, anyway, Saying 32 -  ”Jesus says: A city built upon a high mountain (and) fortified cannot fall, nor can it be hidden."
   
Gene: We’ve been talking about what you spend time on. I think this one is saying that what you spend your time on, becomes who you are, which is hard to change or hide.
   
14:38 Sayings 33-35
   
David: Exactly. And Saying 33 expands on that. It says - “What you will hear with your ear (with the other ear) proclaim from your rooftop. For no one lights a lamp (and) puts it under a bushel, nor does he put it in a hidden place. Rather, he puts it on a lampstand, so that everyone who comes in and goes out will see its light."
   
Gene: Like you said that’s a expansion of Saying 32, but maybe with more a slant toward self-expression.
   
David: That’s true, but the key part is the phrase “what you hear with the other ear.” That’s talking about your “spiritual ear” - singular.
   
Gene: “Those with ears to hear.”
   
David: Right. So it’s saying that once you can hear that inner wisdom, real insight, to make it your main source of light. And when someone really possesses some inner wisdom, you can hear it in their words, because it speaks to your heart, to truth. But, that's often not what you  hear from self-proclaimed spiritual leaders, or just most teachers even.
   
Gene: Which is a good lead in to Saying 34 - "If a blind (person) leads a blind (person), both will fall into a pit."
   
David: Be careful who, or what voices, you’re listening to and following. Because, it’s your life. And as far as spiritual teachers go, in today’s world, everything is out there.  It might help to have people point out a few things, but do your own research. Don’t blindly follow anybody.
   
Gene: Anybody can call themselves a Druid, or a Shaman, but watch how they behave and what they say. Like the sayings point out, you can’t hide what you are forever.
   
David: And on an esoteric level, the saying speaks to which internal voices you’re listening to, which we discussed in relation to the “Secret Gospel of John.”
   
Gene: Again, it goes back to discernment. Hearing with the inner or spiritual ear. Are you ready for the next one?
   
David: Yes.
   
Gene: Saying 35 - “Jesus says: It is not possible for someone to enter the house of a strong (person and) take it by force unless he binds his hands. Then he will loot his house."
   
David: “I wanted to do the right thing, but my hands were tied.” It’s about how material concerns constrain our actions so that we allow, in a sense, are complicit, in evil in the world because we don’t do anything about it… except maybe post a meme on social media.
   
Gene: As the saying goes - “No good deed goes unpunished.”
   
David: That's true, there are often consequences when you do the right thing. If you’re a “strong person,” meaning that you have principles, the way to get you to abandon those principles is to constrain your actions, to “bind your hands,” meaning that if you act according to your principles, then you face material repercussions - like losing friends, relationships, or your job.
   
Gene: Or, in extreme cases, even your life.
   
17:43 Sayings 36-38
   
David: True. Saying 36 says - "Do not worry from morning to evening and from evening to morning about what you will wear."
   
Gene: Basically don’t spend your whole day focused on outward things, material concerns. It’s like the earlier sayings that were about how you spend your time.
   
David: And what you’re thinking about, where your attention is focused. It’s saying don’t spend all your time on trivial things, focus on what matters.
   
Gene: You ready for the next one?
   
David: Yes.
   
Gene: Saying 37 - “His disciples said: "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you? Jesus said: "When you undress without being ashamed and take your clothes (and) put them under your feet like little children (and) trample on them, then (you) will see the son of the Living One, and you will not be afraid."
   
David: It’s using “clothes” again to stand in for all material concerns, so “trampling on them,” means overcoming them, but it’s also implying overcoming sex urges and shame. Kind of like overcoming the “Curse of Eden.”
   
Gene: Becoming childlike, but not a child. Having “experience” of the world, in every sense of the word, but putting it “under heel,” so to speak.
   
David: Right. “In the world, but not of the world.” The next one is Saying 38 in which “Jesus says:  "Many times have you desired to hear these words, these that I am speaking to you, and you have no one else from whom to hear them. There will be days when you will seek me (and) you will not find me."
   
Gene: Like you said earlier, it’s rare for anyone to have the wisdom to speak words like these that we’re reading in this text. You can hear the truth in them. And that’s something we all long to hear - which people can take advantage of.
   
David: That's why you can't just take other people's word as to what your inner truth is. Gnosis is about self-knowledge, not second-hand knowledge.
   
Gene: To seek out the inner voice that knows, rather than waiting for someone to tell you your inner truth.
   
19:51 Sayings 39-41
   
David: Which is what Saying 39 is about. It says - "The Pharisees and the scribes have received the keys of knowledge, (but) they have hidden them. Neither have they entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves!"
   
Gene: We’ve talked in earlier episodes about how this came about. How the symbolic reading of the sacred texts, the “keys” that unlock their inner meaning, was suppressed by the orthodox church, in favor of literal readings.
   
David: But, as we've said those times are over. Everything you want to know,  is available, but incredibly, the outcome is the same - most people don’t really take advantage of this, in a good way, and often discourage others from it, too.
   
Gene: The more things change, the more they stay the same. The esoteric knowledge isn’t officially taboo anymore, but it’s still sort of frowned on. It makes people uncomfortable - especially people who think they know what everyone else should do.
   
David: That’s true. Will you read the next one?
   
Gene: Sure. Saying 40 - “Jesus says: A grapevine was planted outside (the vineyard) of the Father. And since it is not supported, it will be pulled up by its roots (and) will perish."
   
David: That could be talking about most of organized religion.
   
Gene: How so?
   
David: “Planted outside the vineyard of the Father,” means without a connection to the divine source, it lacks the inner truth needed to keep it alive in changing times. So it gets “pulled up by the roots,” meaning that it eventually gets obliterated.
   
Gene: And on an esoteric level, it’s saying that you have to do regular work to maintain your own connection with the divine source.
   
David: Gardening is a good metaphor for cultivating a spiritual practice. As the earlier sayings pointed out, you have to devote attention there, or it all gets pulled into other concerns.
   
Gene: Right. Saying 41?
   
David: Yes.
   
Gene: “Jesus says: Whoever has (something) in his hand, (something more) will be given to him. And whoever has nothing, even the little he has will be taken from him."
   
David: As we just talked about, the keys are available to understand these texts, to understand their underlying meaning. If you have those in hand, then you’ll get more out of them. If you don’t have the keys, then you not only will likely not get anything out of them, they may actually cause you harm, through your misinterpretation.
   
Gene: That’s good. Again, I’d add that you have to feed your own sacred. You have to build your own temple. You can’t stand around empty handed waiting for somebody to hand it to you. And it’s an ongoing process that just doesn’t appear out of thin air.
   
22:42 Sayings 42-44
   
David: Right. Saying 42 is one of my favorites. It just says - “Become passers-by.” The first thing I thought of was “The Dude Abides.”
   
Gene: It made me think of a line from “Secret Journey,” by The Police - “This does not seem to touch you, he pointed to the rain.”
   
David: Yeah, again - “in the world, but not of the world.”
   
Gene: Detachment from material concerns.
   
David: And identifying with the part of yourself that observes, instead of being just immersed in experiences.
   
Gene: Literally, a higher state of consciousness. One that looks down on, or watches, your own thoughts and actions.
   
David: Right, staying awake and observant, of yourself and others. Will you read the next one?
   
Gene: OK. Saying 43 - “His disciples said to him: Who are you to say this to us. "Do you not realize from what I say to you who I am? But you have become like the Jews! They love the tree, (but) they hate its fruit. Or they love the fruit, (but) they hate the tree."
   
David: The first part is Jesus saying to judge him by his words and his teachings. They should be able to hear the ring of truth in them, rather than him having to advertise his qualifications.
   
Gene: What do you make out of the reference to the Jews?
   
David: It’s making a reference to the Tree, being the Jewish Wisdom tradition, and its fruit being Gnosis, which is self-realization. But it’s saying that some embrace the tradition, but don’t like the idea of people being in charge of their own spiritual life. And on the other hand, there are people who embrace the self-deterministic aspect, but don’t respect the Wisdom tradition. In other words, they’re secular.
   
Gene: Ah, OK. That makes sense.
   
David: Alright. In Saying 44, “Jesus says: Whoever blasphemes against the Father, it will be forgiven him. And whoever blasphemes against the Son, it will be forgiven him. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither on earth nor in heaven."
   
Gene: We talked about this in the “Secret Gospel of John.” If you knowingly put your hand on a hot stove, you know that you are going to get burned.
   
David: Right. The Father is Unity, and the Son, is the whole of humanity. And to act against those ideals, in the long run, get corrected. But acting against your own experience, what you know to be true, invokes its own punishment.
   
Gene: That’s true. Do you want to do the next one?
   
25:16 Sayings 45-46
   
David: OK. Saying 45 - “Grapes are not harvested from thorns, nor are figs picked from thistles, for they do not produce fruit. A good person brings forth good from his treasure. A bad person brings (forth) evil from the bad treasure that is in his heart, and (in fact) he speaks evil. For out of the abundance of the heart he brings forth evil."
   
Gene: That ties back to Saying 43, where Jesus said to judge him by his words, basically to judge the tree by the fruit it produces - meaning to judge a person according to what they say and do.
   
David: And esoterically, it refers to which voices or thoughts we cultivate or listen to and act on. You’re not going to harvest figs from thorns.
   
Gene: Again, the gardening metaphor.
   
David: Yes, it is. Will you read the last one?
   
Gene: Sure. Saying 46 - “Jesus says: From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women there is no one who surpasses John the Baptist so that his eyes need not be downcast. But I have also said: ‘Whoever among you becomes little will know the kingdom, and will surpass John.’"
   
David: Phrases like “becoming little,” or “the first will be last,” refer to overcoming the “big self,” the ego, becoming childlike, but with experience of the world.
   
Gene: That one got me thinking about the stories of John the Baptist. How he wore hair shirts, ate locusts and lived in the desert, like some kind of wild man.
   
David: He’s the archetypal Hermit.
   
Gene: That’s true. But, he basically seemed to torment himself, trying to wash his sins away. It’s like the stories about Siddhartha Gautama before he became the Buddha. John is the forerunner or herald of the Christ, the “voice crying out in the wilderness,” but he’s not the Christ. He’s like Moses who doesn’t make it to the “Promised Land” - Joshua does.
   
David: And those are same story. John symbolizes the consciousness that can see Gnosis as the ultimate goal, but can’t make it there by itself. The final stroke has to come from outside. It’s only when John “loses his head,” meaning overcoming his ego and “becoming small” that he becomes something greater.
   
Gene: The final sacrifice, like Moses, to finally make it to the “Promised Land,” by slaying the false self.
   
David: Right. My last comment is just to point out that the symbolism of having your head cut off, of escaping the intellectual constraints that we normally live within, that final stroke has to come from outside, meaning a transpersonal force. And that is the purpose of spiritual practices. To cultivate a part of yourself that’s not completely within your domain - again like gardening. You can feed it and water it, but it’s rooted in something deeper, in life, in mystery.
   
Gene: Something your “little self” doesn’t have control over.
   
David: Exactly. Anything else?
   
Gene: No. That’s all I’ve got.
   
28:26 Conclusions
    
David: Alright. Before we wrap up, I want to remind everyone about the “Show Notes,” which have references to the translation we’re using, a “Deep Dive” page on the “Gospel of Thomas,” and other resources. 
    
Gene: And as always, we encourage everyone to do their own research and study. It is well worth the effort. 
    
David: It really is. What else would you like to say?
    
Gene: Just that I’m enjoying going through all of the sayings. Each one of them has like a tasty nougat center. You just have to chew on it for a while to get to it.
    
David: That’s true. Gene and I debated how to handle the text of the Gospel of Thomas, and initially, we were just going to just do a selection of the sayings, but we couldn’t decide which ones we should skip.
    
Gene: They all seemed to have something to reveal. Even the ones we’ve heard many times before.
    
David: I think that’s because of the context that we’re coming from now, with new ears, so to speak, meaning a different framework, to understand things from.
    
Gene: I think so, too.
    
David: Alright. That’s all I’ve got.
    
Gene: Me, too. In our next episode, we’ll continue our discussion of the Gospel of Thomas.