01:15 Introduction
   
Gene: Hello Dave.
   
David: Hello Gene. Are you ready for Part 3?
   
Gene: I think so.
   
David: OK. As always, before we get started, I want to remind everyone that Show Notes, Chapter Markers, and Transcripts for all of our episodes are available on our website - WayOfTheHermit.com. In our last episode, we discussed Sayings 24 through 46 of the Gospel of Thomas. In this episode, we will discuss the next 23 Sayings.
   
01:41 Review
   
Gene: As we discussed in the previous episodes dedicated to the Gospel of Thomas, the sayings are, for the most part, independent.
   
David: They are, but many of the themes are repeated using different symbols. All of them being related to the three worlds - the Spiritual, called the Pleroma.
   
Gene: Which means “fullness” in Greek. It’s the source of and the destination of the Soul.
   
David: Right. With the Soul residing in the second world, referred to as Heaven. The word “soul” has all sorts of connotations, but in our context, it’s the Mind, where we make choices.
   
Gene: Where we exert our “free will,” or lack thereof.
   
David: Yes, and the third world is the physical world, where the duality is actualized. Many of the sayings in this episode, are about overcoming duality. So, they’re referring to the realm of the Soul, or the Mind, where we make choices. Anything else before we dive in?
   
Gene: Just that, as we’ve said many times, spiritual texts, like the Gospel of Thomas, are meant to be read as personal revelations… and by that I mean, they’re talking about you, not something that happened long ago and far away.
   
David: It’s as they say, the meaning of them is “as close as your own breath.”
   
Gene: Right. You have to make it personal, or it’s just more edu-tainment, which is what I think it’s called nowadays.
   
David: Yeah, educational entertainment.
   
03:06 Saying 47
   
David: Alright. Let’s get started with Saying 47 of the Gospel of Thomas, which has five parts. All the parts are about duality, but they all talk about it using different symbols. The first part says “It is impossible for a person to mount two horses and to stretch two bows.”
   
Gene: That’s just physically impossible. We don’t have enough arms or legs, to ride two horses, or to stretch two bows at the same time.
   
David: So, it’s saying that we physically can’t do everything. We don’t have the physical resources, or time to do everything. We have to make choices and prioritize what’s important. The next part says “It is impossible for a servant to serve two masters.”
   
Gene: “Bow down before the one you serve.”
   
David: Meaning?
   
Gene: What do you spend most of your time doing? Time being your most precious resource.
   
David: OK. So it’s talking about duality in terms of divided loyalty. Mental choices that have physical consequences.
   
Gene: You ultimately “get what you deserve.”
   
David: I knew you would have to finish that lyric. Anyway, the next part says “No person drinks old wine and immediately desires to drink new wine.” “Old wine,” referring to our old ways of thinking and being in the world, and the “new wine,” being the awakened perspective.
   
Gene: So, it’s talking about how it takes time to change the way you are, how you think, and how you see the world.
   
David: And also the difficulty of introducing people in general to new ideas. The new teachings “taste funny,” when you’re used to the old stuff.
   
Gene: An acquired taste, as they say.
   
David: Right, you have to get used to it. The next part says that “New wine is not put into old wineskins... nor is old wine put into a new wineskin.”
   
Gene: So, “new wine,” is, as we said, new spiritual ideas. And “old wineskins,” would be what, “old spiritual frameworks,” or contexts?
   
David: Yes. It’s saying that they’re incompatible, the old rigid frameworks can’t contain the vitality, the life, of the new ideas without breaking.
   
Gene: And in the other analogy, you’re just messing up your new wineskins by putting old wine in it. The old ideas don’t fit anymore.
   
David: So, you have to create a new vessel to contain the wine. You have to create new conceptual frameworks as you go along to process the realizations. And as the previous part said, it takes time. The last part of Saying 47, says…
   
Gene: Are we still just on the first one?
   
David: Yes.
   
Gene: Wow.
   
David: I know, but the last part says - “An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment.”
   
Gene: That’s again, about trying to patch old ideas onto new frameworks.
   
David: It is, but the focus here is on the tension that's caused when you try to patch ideas onto an existing philosophy. It’s a weak spot where your framework can tear apart.
   
Gene: That’s cool. I’m just noticing how even though the whole saying is about duality and choices, each part highlights a different aspect.
   
David: They do. But also, the saying as a whole defines a progression. It starts with saying you need to make time for a spiritual practice, then choose your master, which voice you’re listening to. Then the new ideas will flow in, the "new wine,” that you have to create new wineskins, new frameworks to fit them within. And then finally, those new habitual frameworks, become the clothes you wear. It loops back to the physical, but this time, it’s talking about your own skin, your “clothes.”
   
Gene: Very cool. You ready for the next one?
   
David: Yes.
   
07:02 Sayings 48-49
   
Gene: Saying 48 - “Jesus says: “If two make peace with one another in one and the same house, (then) they will say to the mountain: ‘Move away,’ and it will move away."
   
David: So, again duality, with the “house,” being you, your experience of life through your mind. And we experience duality in many forms, as in mental and material, or the conscious and unconscious or subconscious parts of the mind, the Greek “soul” and “psyche.”
   
Gene: Or the Anima and Animus in Jungian psychology.
   
David: In Gnostic terms, it's the first Adam, the hermaphrodite, that the Demiurge cut apart in the Secret Gospel of John to create Adam and Eve. So to “make peace with one another” in the “same house,” means becoming whole, individuation or the "Sacred Marriage."
   
Gene: What about the next part about “moving mountains?” Do you think that means that once you become whole, that you can perform miracles?
   
David: Yes. There may be other senses in which that statement is more literally true, but think of it in this sense - “moving mountains,” can refer to overcoming obstacles and limitations that seem impossible. But, the more you know about yourself, the more you realize that most of those obstacles and limitations, are self-imposed, or imposed from the inside, let’s say. They're beliefs that you hold to be true, but they may not actually be true. And when you stop seeing them as forces of nature, insurmountable mountains standing between you and what you want, the mountains move. They aren’t really obstacles and they never were.
   
Gene: To quote Morpheus from “The Matrix” - "The mind makes it real."
   
David: Or to quote Dr. John Lilly - "What one believes to be true, either is true, or becomes true, within limits to be discovered by experience." So, you have to test the limits in order determine what's real.
   
Gene: "Free your mind.”
   
David: Exactly. Alright, saying 49 - “Jesus says, Blessed are the solitary ones, the elect. For you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again.”
   
Gene: “Solitary ones,” sounds like Hermits. So, can we call this one the “Way of the Hermit?”
   
David: Sure. If you want to. On the face of it, it does seem to be talking about the value of physical isolation from the distractions of the world, in the process of coming to know yourself. But, esoterically, it’s talking about spiritual introspection, internal isolation, creating a sacred space. Again, a new vessel that provides a framework for finding the “kingdom.”
   
Gene: “Kingdom” referring again to wholeness, the Pleroma, which means “fullness.”
   
David: Yes, unitive consciousness, where all dualities are resolved, where we, our sense of self comes from, and where it says we return to. And the “elect,” are those that have found that place. Do you want to do the next one?
   
Gene: Sure.
   
10:09 Sayings 50-52
   
Gene: Saying 50 has three parts. Here’s the first part - “Jesus says: If they say to you: ‘Where do you come from?’ (then) say to them: ‘We have come from the light, the place where the light has come into being by itself, has established [itself] and has appeared in their image.’”
   
David: That starts off talking about “heaven,” the Pleroma. The place where the light “comes into being by itself,” which is the Monad. Then it establishes itself in Barbelo, the “first reflection,” and finally, it appears to the Soul or Mind as the image of Christ, or the Autogenes.
   
Gene: That’s good. The next part says - “If they say to you: ‘Is it you?’ (then) say: ‘We are his children, and we are the elect of the living Father.’”
   
David: The “elect,” as in the last saying, are those that have found the kingdom, where the Father lives - the Monad, as opposed to the Demiurge.
   
Gene: And the last part of Saying 50 is “If they ask you: ‘What is the sign of your Father among you?’ (then) say to them: ‘It is movement and repose.’"
   
David: The only is constant is change.
   
Gene: It’s that archetypal cycle of action followed by rest. It’s the “turning of the tides,” “for everything there is a season,”… and all of that.
   
David: Right. It's the “solve et coagula,” in Alchemy. It’s the dual current, and how it plays out in time and space.
   
Gene: Do you want to read the next one?
   
David: Sure. Saying 51 - “His disciples said to him: When will the (resurrection) of the dead take place, and when will the new world come? He said to them: That (resurrection) which you are awaiting has (already) come, but you do not recognize it."
   
Gene: The disciples are looking for it in the future, but Jesus is telling them that it’s already happened.
   
David: And what’s lacking is their recognition of it. They need to change their perception to see it.
   
Gene: To understand what it means to be “dead,” and to be “resurrected.”
   
David: Right. Spiritually dead, meaning not being able to see our connection to the source, and to each other. Once again, a new world view, or “wineskin,” that can contain the idea that resurrection is something that’s supposed to take place while you’re alive, not after you’re dead.
   
Gene: Right. Ready for the next one?
   
David: Yes.
   
Gene: Saying 52 - “His disciples said to him: "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in Israel, and all (of them) have spoken through you. He said to them: You have pushed away the living (one) from yourselves, and you have begun to speak of those who are dead."
   
David: Now, instead of looking toward the future, they’re looking at the past, at the “dead” teachings, that are codified, the traditions. They still aren’t focused on hearing the “living word,” the one inside themselves.
   
Gene: That’s good. The only other thing I’d add is that the number 24 is a symbol of wholeness, like the 24 hours in a day. So the disciples are framing Jesus as being the culmination of the Jewish prophetic tradition.
   
David: But Jesus says they’re pushing away their own inner awareness, their “higher self,” in favor of tradition or perceived spiritual authority.
   
13:22 Sayings 53-55
   
Gene: Right. Saying 53 - “His disciples said to him: "Is circumcision beneficial, or not? He said to them: If it were beneficial, their father would beget them circumcized from their mother. But the true circumcision in the spirit has prevailed over everything."
   
David: Again, it’s talking about the difference between external religious observance or practice, and real internal spiritual work.
   
Gene: And the duality, is represented here by the Father, presumably the Monad, and the Mother, as in “Mother Nature,” our earthly nature.
   
David: And the “circumcision of the spirit,” refers to cutting away the veil of illusion that separates us from our true origin and purpose, to overcome the illusion of duality. Again, to see ourselves as whole. Will you do the next one?
   
Gene: Saying 53 - “Jesus says: Blessed are the poor. For the kingdom of heaven belongs to you."
   
David: While the rich take everything else.
   
Gene: Yeah.
   
David: I mean, I think that’s how some people want you to read that.
   
Gene: Which is sort of how the organized church has cashed in on sayings like that.
   
David: It has, but “poor” in an esoteric context, or “poor in spirit”, or the “weak”, all of those refer to people who aren’t “full of themselves,” who have room for spiritual knowledge. There’s a traditional Japanese story that I like, about being open to knowledge, that I could tell here.
   
Gene: Sure. Go for it.
   
David: Alright. A university professor travels a great distance to learn from a Zen Master. Upon meeting the Master, the professor talks endlessly about his knowledge, and his vast library, and all of his awards. The Zen Master listens intently as he calmly begins pouring tea into the professor’s cup, but he doesn’t stop when the cup is full and just keeps pouring, the tea spilling out onto the professor’s shoes. He says - “Can’t you see my cup is full? It can’t hold any more!” To which the Master replies - “Such is your mind, so full of preconceptions and opinions, that it leaves no room for new teachings.”
   
Gene: I see what you’ve done there. That’s really good. You know, another interpretation of poverty could be a lack of material attachments and constraints. So, it’s pointing out again, how you have to make room in your life, how you have to attain some sort of spiritual detachment, for new ideas to take root.
   
David: The main idea being that there is something greater than what you normally perceive as you, and it’s worthwhile to diminish your ego, your sense of self, purposefully in pursuit of that ideal. Ready for the next one?
   
Gene: Yes.
   
David: Saying 55 - “Jesus says: Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple of mine. And whoever does not hate his brothers and his sisters (and) will not take up his cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."
   
Gene: On the surface, that’s the opposite of Saying 25 that says to “love your brother like your own life.” But here, it’s again talking about spiritual detachment and self-realization, about finding your own voice - individuation, in Jungian terms.
   
David: Yeah. It’s talking about overcoming all of your societal indoctrination, conditioning, and attachments, so that we can take up your own cross, the burden of being you, because no one can do that but you.
   
Gene: It’s like that old saying - “No matter where you go, there you are.”
   
David: Right. So, this saying is a call to embrace that burden consciously, if we’re going to be “worthy of him,” meaning capable of embodying our spiritual ideals. Next one?
   
17:02 Sayings 56-58
   
Gene: Alright. Saying 56 - “Jesus says: Whoever has come to know the world has found a corpse. And whoever has found (this) corpse, of him the world is not worthy."
   
David: This sort of refers back to Saying 29, about consciousness being primary, in shaping reality. It’s pointing out that the material world is transient and fleeting. Like we said, the only constant is change. The objects of our perception, are in a sense “dead.” It’s what rests and moves in it, that gives it life, or meaning even.
   
Gene: That’s so true, but subtle, too. We imbue meaning into things because that’s what we do. Humans are sort of “meaning making machines.”
   
David: Right. We live in, and through, our perception of the world, the inner framework, the wineskin from the earlier saying. And consciousness is the wine, the life blood, that brings the dead objects of perception, to life.
   
Gene: Cool. Do you want to read the next one?
   
David: Sure. Saying 57 - “Jesus says: The kingdom of the Father is like a person who had (good) seed. His enemy came by night. He sowed darnel among the good seed. The person did not allow (the servants) to pull up the darnel. He said to them: ‘Lest you go to pull up the darnel (and then) pull up the wheat along with it.’ For on the day of the harvest, the darnel will be apparent and it will be pulled up (and) burned."
   
Gene: As the saying goes - “Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.”
   
David: Which, for those who don’t know, that means don’t act rashly or too quickly.
   
Gene: Correct. Darnel is a weed that early on, looks like wheat. So if you try to pull it up early, you’re likely to pull up wheat with it. But if you let it mature, then you can separate it. So, it’s talking about spiritual discernment and how it takes wisdom to understand the precise timing of actions… again, using the gardening metaphor.
   
David: And the enemy it refers to is the Demiurge, the egoic self, which comes by night, meaning without the light of awareness. And, as we’ve talked about, it’s difficult to tell which thoughts come from where. But spiritual discernment, is about coming to know where thoughts and actions likely lead, and what fruits they’re likely to produce in the end. Next one?
   
Gene: OK. Saying 58 - “Blessed is the person who has struggled. He has found life."
   
David: To “struggle,” implies inner conflict, a perception of duality and an engagement with it. So, to struggle means, you’re engaged in the process of living, of transforming yourself.
   
Gene: “No pain, no gain.”
   
David: Well, without that inner friction, you’d just have stasis. You know, the things we struggle with are the “mountains” we talked about earlier, the obstacles and limitations that we fight against.
   
Gene: Yep.
   
David: Which, as we talked about earlier, mostly prove to be illusory. Anything else on that one?
   
Gene: Just that the part about “finding life,” relates back to the saying about the world being a corpse. Life, the unseen mover, is like the “man behind the curtain,” so to speak, that only gets revealed through your personal engagement, your struggles.
   
David: That’s good.
   
20:14 Sayings 59-61
   
David: Saying 59 - “Jesus says: Look for the Living One while you are alive, so that you will not die (and) then seek to see him. And you will not be able to see (him)."
   
Gene: It’s talking about the indwelling presence of life within us, our own animating principle, our consciousness.
   
David: Which is understood to be a manifestation of the Monad.
   
Gene: Correct. And it’s saying that the time to realize all of that is now, while that force moves and rests within you… not after you become a corpse, when that force has seemingly moved on.
   
David: Back into the fullness, the Pleroma. Saying 60 continues this theme. It says - “(He saw) a Samaritan who was trying to steal a lamb while he was on his way to Judea. He said to his disciples: "That (person) is stalking the lamb. They said to him: "So that he may kill it (and) eat it." He said to them: "As long as it is alive he will not eat it, but (only) when he has killed it (and) it has become a corpse.” They said to him: "Otherwise he cannot do it." He said to them: "You, too, look for a place for your repose so that you may not become a corpse (and) get eaten."
   
Gene: Well, first off, that one reminds me of the joke about the “3-Legged Pig.”
   
David: Yeah, I can see that, but that joke probably wouldn’t play so well in a Jewish setting.
   
Gene: That’s true.
   
David: But anyway, a Samaritan, is someone from Samaria, an outsider figure, in Jewish Tradition. He represents the ego or the lower-self, who wants to “eat the lamb,” to consume or exploit what the lamb stands for - our vitality, our life force, our attention… which is basically innocent.
   
Gene: But it says that he can’t eat it while it’s alive, only after it’s dead.
   
David: Meaning “spiritually dead,” as in, no longer connected to the whole being, just to the lower aspect.
   
Gene: Which was said about the world in Saying 56. It’s like a corpse.
   
David: So, we’re told to seek a place of repose, an inner spiritual isolation, where we can rest, within ourselves, and not be eaten.
   
Gene: So that we can redirect that energy toward higher purposes, something more lasting, instead of it being wasted on something transient.
   
David: Yes. Saying 61 is a strange conversation between Jesus and Salome, the woman who in the Bible, is responsible for having John the Baptist’s head cut off. It starts off with Jesus saying - “’Two will rest on a bed. The one will die, the other will live.’ Salome said: ‘(So) who are you, man? You have gotten a place on my couch as a (stranger) and you have eaten from my table.’”
   
Gene: The “two” are the duality we’ve been talking about, resting in a “bed,” which is your head. And Salome, being like an initiator, is asking the question - “Who are you?” Basically, she’s asking “Which one of the two are you?”
   
David: But Jesus corrects her, because she doesn’t yet recognize that he is the initiator here, not her. He says - “I am he who comes from the one who is (always) the same. I was given some of that which is my Father’s.” At this point Salome understands who is the Master, and says: “I am your disciple!” So Jesus instructs her by saying - “If someone becomes (like God), he will become full of light. But if he becomes one, separated (from God), he will become full of darkness.”
   
Gene: So, if you try to become “like God,” meaning to structure your life according to what you can understand of the “divine pattern,” or plan, then you stay connected spiritually.
   
David: Right. It’s talking about how you see the world - from a point of separation or some kind of connection, that hopefully deepens as you pay attention to it.
   
Gene: But it’s basically just the perspective that you see yourself and the world from.
   
David: Sure. That’s all any of this is about. Trying to change your perspective to give life more meaning. Next one?
   
24:22 Sayings 62-64
   
Gene: Yes. The first part of Saying 62 is - “Jesus says: I tell my mysteries to those who are worthy of my mysteries.”
   
David: The meaning of that part depends on the definition of a “mystery,” which here is meant to be self-knowledge that’s only accessible to those that are “worthy,” meaning those who have built the framework for revealing the mystery.
   
Gene: Sort of like a self-enforcing valve, or locking mechanism that only opens for those that have done the inner preparation. The second part of Saying 62 is “Whatever your right hand does, your left hand should not know what it is doing."
   
David: There’s the duality again, with the “right hand,” symbolizing conscious thought and actions, the “light side,” and the left, the “sinister hand,” symbolizing darkness, and unconscious motivations and desires.
   
Gene: It’s like Saying 60 about the Samaritan and the lamb. It’s a warning that if you’re not on guard, the “little part” of yourself, will steal the credit, or the energy of any situation.
   
David: Hence, the Masonic prohibition about taking credit for good deeds. Which is not just about being altruistic, it’s for your safety, and mental health.
   
Gene: It’s a slippery slope. Your ego always wants to eat up the credit and say, “Look at me! Look at all the great things I’ve done!”
   
David: Yeah, that’s the danger. Alright, Saying 63 - “Jesus says: There was a rich person who had many possessions. He said: ‘I will use my possessions so that I might sow, reap, plant, (and) fill my storehouses with fruit so that I will not lack anything.’ This was what he was thinking in his heart. And in that night he died. Whoever has ears should hear."
   
Gene: That’s about the transient nature of material things, and another instance where it’s being pointed out, that we shouldn’t focus on the past or the future, but on the now, the only time that actually exists, and when we can make a difference.
   
David: That’s good. I would add that “rich,” in this context, is a person who is full of themselves - not “poor in spirit,” which, as we’ve talked about, means, seeking self-knowledge.
   
Gene: They’re putting all their eggs into one basket, so to speak - the ego-basket, the one that tells us that we’re separate from everything else.
   
David: But we’re not. There are bigger cycles at play - like life and death.  The quote ends by saying that the rich man died in the “night,” meaning in darkness.
   
Gene: Separate - not connected to the light, the “higher self.”
   
David: Right. Saying 64 is quite long, and a version of it does appear in the Bible, so I’ll just summarize it. A person is hosting a dinner and he sends a servant out to invite guests. All of them make excuses and say that they can’t come. One is delivering bills, one is paying for a house, another is cooking for a wedding, and the last is collecting rent. The story ends with the Master saying to the servant - “Those whom you invited to the dinner have asked to be excused… Go out on the roads. Bring (back) whomever you find, so that they might have dinner. Dealers and merchants (will) not enter the places of my Father."
   
Gene: That’s another way of saying that people caught up in material concerns, aren’t hungry for what the Master is cookin’.
   
David: Well actually, that’s true. “Dealers and merchants,” refers to people whose main interest and focus is material things. They're already full and don't have room for spiritual food.
   
Gene: Yeah.
   
David: So the servant is told to go out and find people who are spiritually hungry.
   
Gene: So again, it’s saying that you have to make time in your life, or make room at the table, for spiritual nourishment.
   
David: Yes.
   
28:03 Sayings 65-67
   
David: Saying 65 is another long one that appears in the Bible, but I’m just going to read it - "A Master owned a vineyard. He gave it to some farmers so that they would work it (and) he might receive its fruit from them. He sent his servant so that the farmers might give him the fruit of the vineyard. They seized his servant, beat him, (and) almost killed him. The servant went (back and) told his master. His master said: ‘Perhaps they did not recognize him.’ He sent another servant, (and) the farmers beat that other one as well. Then the master sent his son (and) said: ‘Perhaps they will show respect for my son.’ (But) those farmers, since they knew that he was the heir of the vineyard, seized him (and) killed him. Whoever has ears should hear."
   
Gene: The exoteric interpretation is that we are the farmers who are loaned the land, our material existence, for a time. And the servants are the prophets in the Jewish tradition, or others like Giordano Bruno who were mistreated, or even martyred for speaking the truth - like the son of the land owner.
   
David: Who, in the exoteric interpretation, is Jesus. But esoterically, of course, all the characters are aspects of you. The vineyard is your mind, your awareness. The farmers are the Demiurge and the Archons, aspects of the separate self. And the servants are what you might call, messengers, flashes of insight “from above,” so to speak. When they enter the mind, they get “beaten up,” by the purely material way of thinking about things. They don’t fit into that materialistic framework.
   
Gene: It’s like a retelling of the three descents of the “Luminous Epinoia,,” from the “Secret Gospel of John,” where the people are not ready to hear her voice. But, in this one, it just ends, with the murder of the son.
   
David: That is strange, but it seems to lead directly into the next saying, Saying 66, which says “Show me the stone that the builders have rejected. It is the cornerstone.”
   
Gene: The “builders,” being like the “farmers,” in the previous Saying.
   
David: Yes, it switches metaphors, but to me, it completes the previous saying, which as we've said, ends with the son being killed. But if you think that story on through - that turns the son into a corpse, which becomes part of the soil that the grapes grow out of and the wine is made from.
   
Gene: Blood into wine. He permeates it and becomes a part of it.
   
David: Exactly. And in this saying, that which is rejected, becomes the cornerstone. Again, a cornerstone, like a corpse, is buried in the ground, to form the foundation for the Temple that’s built on top of it. The Temple, like the vineyard, symbolizing your mind. So, the “cornerstone,” is the “divine pattern,” or the pattern on the trestle board, that unfolds into the Temple… like a hologram - made in the image of God.
   
Gene: So, both of the sayings point to the pattern being initially rejected, by our conditioned ways of thinking, perhaps lying dormant for a time, but at some point awakening, and causing a serious change, in the way we think, and act, from that point on.
   
David: I think that sums up what it means to be initiated. But anyway, let’s move on. Saying 67 is - "Whoever knows all, if he is lacking one thing, he is (already) lacking everything."
   
Gene: That’s like a word play on the word “all,” because “all” means “everything”. So you can’t technically know “all” or have “everything,” if you are lacking any one thing. So, it’s talking about wholeness.
   
David: Yeah. Another way to read it would be, if you’re “lacking one thing,” meaning “the one thing,” your spiritual connection to unity, then you’re lacking everything, because everything else is transient, and you’re lacking the one thing that gives everything else meaning.
   
Gene: Yes, that works as well.
   
32:00 Sayings 68-69
   
David: Alright. We’re down to the last two sayings, which are about persecution. Will you do the first one?
   
Gene: Sure. Saying 68 - "Blessed are you when(ever) they hate you (and) persecute you. But they (themselves) will find no place there where they have persecuted you."
   
David: So to me, it’s almost like all of the sayings this time have sort of led here.
   
Gene: What do you mean?
   
David: Persecution is presented, as basically a natural consequence of speaking the truth to a world that doesn’t want to hear it. The world has been been described as full of people, drunk with materiality, rich in possessions and attachments, and not hungry for Gnosis… and, even violent toward those that dare to speak the truth.
   
Gene: That’s true. So, it’s saying that you should take it as a good sign, that people hate and persecute you.
   
David: Well, you know - haters are gonna hate. The teachings are presented as going against what most people believe. And as making people uncomfortable, because they challenge your perspective, your worldview… even who you really are.
   
Gene: Yes, they do. What about the second part that they “will find no place there, where they have persecuted you.”?
   
David: I would just say - “Ain’t no rest for the wicked.” The “place” it’s talking about is the “place of repose,” from an earlier saying, and, I think the idea is that if you persecute other people, your thinking is rooted in separateness and fear.
   
Gene: Basically stuck, in your own little world view.
   
David: Right. And we’ve finally made it to the last saying for this episode, Saying 69, which starts off with - “Jesus says: Blessed are those who have been persecuted in their heart. They are the ones who have truly come to know the Father.”
   
Gene: That’s a curious phrasing - “persecuted in their heart.” So, it’s not external persecution, but internal?
   
David: Yes. It implies something deeper and more personal than the previous saying. The striving here is internalized, and it causes a tension, in the heart, which is the symbolic seat of spiritual perception.
   
Gene: So, “persecuting in your heart,” is you striving to make the right choices to maintain that connection to the Father, to spirit, or Unity, whatever you want to call it.
   
David: Sure, it’s an ongoing thing, because it’s dynamic.
   
Gene: Not one and done.
   
David: No. The last of part of Saying 69 is - “Blessed are those who suffer from hunger so that the belly of the one who wishes (it) will be satisfied."
   
Gene: Again, it’s the metaphor of “hunger,” or desire after spiritual things, spiritual food. It’s saying that you have to really want it, if you expect to receive it.
   
David: And that’s the key to maintaining that connection - you have to really want it… and it has to be a meaningful reason to you to do it, or you won’t, because the world will push against it.
   
Gene: Amen to that brother.
   
David: Anything else?
   
Gene: Nope.
   
35:07 Conclusions
    
David: Alright. I want to remind everyone again, about the “Show Notes,” which have references to the translation we’re using, and many other resources, which I hope you can make use of in your own research of the Gospel of Thomas. So Gene, what are your final thoughts?
    
Gene: Well, just to pick up where we were a minute ago - for people to see these teachings as important and meaningful… it begins with an understanding of what texts like the Gospel of Thomas are really talking about.
    
David: And that is difficult, because some of us, me included, have been taught or conditioned to hear them in a very different way. You have to keep reminding yourself that if these are truly spiritual texts and not merely historical ones, then they’re talking about you… us. They’re mysteries, riddles that no one can answer but you.
    
Gene: Like “Who are you?” or “Where do you come from?” or “Where are you going?”
    
David: Those are the main initiatory questions - who are you… really, who have you been, and who will you become? Those are mysteries, that real spiritual texts, and I think the Gospel of Thomas is one, can help reveal, if you engage with them.
    
Gene: You have to keep in mind that spiritual texts reveal and conceal, because they’re talking about subtle topics - the mind, free will, consciousness, so, like we’ve said many times, their meanings can be easily misunderstood.
    
David: And because you have to talk about such things using allegories and symbols, there’s a gradual unveiling. I mean, I think you might think you understand a saying or a concept, but then later realize that you didn’t understand it at all, or at least have a very different understanding of it later. I mean, that’s part of how you know that these texts are really important, their meaning and beauty unfolds over time. 
    
Gene: It’s like what Pike said about Masonry, these texts describe a “Beautiful and profound system of morality, veiled in allegories and illustrated by symbols.”
    
David: And, since you brought up Pike, Masonry claims to hold the key to the mysteries, and this is the key that unlocks their meaning - an esoteric reading of the symbols, which is what I think Masonry is supposed to teach you to do. It’s supposed to prepare you to unlock the meaning of the ancient mysteries.
    
Gene: Right. And during that process of applying the key, like we’re doing in the podcast, to be successful, or worthy, you have to personalize and internalize the symbols, burying them, so to speak, so that they can hopefully come alive in your life.
    
David: Alright. That’s a good place to end. Gene, what are we doing next time?
    
Gene: In our next episode, we will cover Sayings 70-92 of the Gospel of Thomas.