01:15 Introduction
    
Gene: Hello Dave. 
    
David: Hello Gene. Are you ready to do another section?
    
Gene: “Thank you sir! may I have another?”
    
David: Come on. It’s worth it.
    
Gene: True. It’s just long.
    
David: It is, but we're almost home. Anyway, before we get started, as always, I want to remind everyone that Show Notes, Chapter Markers, and Transcripts for all of our episodes are available on our website - WayOfTheHermit.com.

   
01:41 Review
   
David: In our last episode, we covered up through saying 69 of the Gospel of Thomas.
   
Gene: And the theme of those Sayings was duality, in all it’s various forms - material, psychological and spiritual.
   
David: Correct. In this episode, we are discussing the next 23 sayings - Sayings 70-92. These Sayings are still about duality, but the emphasis is on the two worlds, or spheres of influence - the spiritual and the material. And how we’re constantly confronted with a choice between the two.
   
Gene: We are, but it’s not like there’s always, or maybe even ever, a quote-unquote “right answer.” I mean, we all need food, clothing, shelter from the elements, clean air and water… and other things that need to be taken care of. So, you can’t just ignore this world.
   
David: You can try, but you’re still in a body, that’s subject to injury, sickness, suffering and death.
   
Gene: Yeah - you can’t ignore that.
   
David: No, but the point is that you have a find a balance between your spiritual needs and your physical needs, and try to become a whole person - true to your aspirations, but not neglectful of your material responsibilities.
   
Gene: To find the balance or Equilibrium between those two pillars. But hopefully with eyes to see where the only lasting value lies… “laying up treasures in heaven,” as they say.
   
03:10 Sayings 70-72
   
David: True. Alright let’s get started with Saying 70, which is - “Jesus says: If you bring it into being within you, (then) that which you have will save you. If you do not have it within you, (then) that which you do not have within you [will] kill you."
   
Gene: The IT that it’s talking about bringing to life, is what’s referred to as the “divine spark” within us, that we are supposed to tend to, to bring it to life through us. And if you do, it saves you and otherwise you’re considered spiritually dead, not connected to the source.
   
David: That’s a good summary. In terms of the two worlds, like you said, it’s talking about a spiritual conception, not a physical one.
   
Gene: A “divine child,” that unites the two realms.
   
David: Right. And so it’s a spiritual conception, what you might call a “virgin birth,” because it’s not physical.
   
Gene: That’s cool. I’ve heard another translation of this saying that says - “If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.”
   
David: I’ve heard that one, too. But it’s same implication, something you have to “bring into being,” or “bring forth,” out of you - spiritual conception. Anything else on that one?
   
Gene: One more thing, the implication is that the divine spark, has to be activated and cultivated. Again, using the gardening metaphor, the seed is under the soil, but it still needs food, water and light to “bring it forth,.” In other words you have to be like a spiritual gardener and tend to it.
   
David: That’s good. Saying 71 is - “Jesus says: I will [destroy this] house, and no one will be able to build it [again]."
   
Gene: That’s like John 2:19 in the Bible where Jesus says - “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Which people interpret literally as the resurrection story.
   
David: But Saying 71 leaves out the resurrection part completely, because it’s not talking about the body here, it’s the “Temple not made with hands,,” it’s your world, or your conception of the world.
   
Gene: So it’s destruction is your “personal apocalypse,” if you will.
   
David: Yeah, it’s the wine that “bursts the wineskins,” using a metaphor from the last episode. If it’s really a complete overturning of your worldview, which is what Gnosis is supposed to be, then there’s no going back.
   
Gene: With Gnosis understood to be the knowledge of the true self, our spiritual connection. Again, what’s called the “divine spark.”
   
David: So to tie it back to the earlier saying, Gnosis is the discovery of the divine spark, and the knowledge of how to cultivate it, to bring it to life through us.
   
Gene: But it necessarily involves the destruction of your old world for there to be the possibility of a “A New World Order,” or a “New Order for the Ages,” within ourselves.
   
David: Exactly. Saying 72 says - “A [person said] to (Jesus): ‘Tell my brothers that they have to divide my father’s possessions with me.’ (Jesus) said to him: ‘Man, who has made me a divider?’ He turned to his disciples (and) said to them: ‘I am not a divider, am I?’”
   
Gene: They are asking Jesus to separate material things, mine from yours. But he’s pointing out that in the spiritual domain, it’s about wholeness… unity.
   
David: And in an esoteric sense, the “brothers” are all aspects of consciousness, that make up what we think of as our divided self.
   
Gene: Sort of like, shattered shards of light, that we have to bring back together, like in the Kabbalistic concept of “Tikkun Olam” - the gathering together of the sparks of light. Do you have anything else for that one?
   
David: Just that the gist of the Saying is, on the spiritual level, there is no division. Jesus, as the divine archetype of humanity, is inclusive, it includes everyone, and every conception - it doesn’t divide, it’s the connection to wholeness.
   
07:25 Sayings 73-75
   
Gene: Cool. Saying 73 - “Jesus says: The harvest is plentiful, but there are few workers. But beg the Lord that he may send workers into the harvest."
   
David: On an exoteric level, it relates to Saying 23 about the rarity of people that pursue the path of Gnosis - “one in a thousand, two in ten thousand.”
   
Gene: And esoterically, it’s about how most of our spiritual potential is “not harvested,” meaning wasted - either because we aren’t setting aside time for it, or not focusing our attention and inner resources toward harvesting it.
   
David: And  “harvesting,” is reaping the fruits of spiritual labors and integrating them into our worldview and life.
   
Gene: So, it’s basically saying that we’re sort of like lazy gardeners.
   
David: Yes… of our spiritual fruit, our creative potential. And the last part about begging the Lord to send workers, is about petitioning the forces outside of our egoic self for help in bringing the disparate parts of ourselves back together again. Next one?
   
Gene: OK. Saying 74 - ”He said: Lord, there are many around the well, but there is nothing in the <well>."
   
David: First, let’s talk first about the symbolism of the well. A well is a conduit between the surface world and the underworld, the hidden depths. It’s also the source of life-sustaining water, and a place for people to gather and meet.
   
Gene: In the Bible, it’s where the patriarch Jacob meets his wife Rachel, and where Moses met his wife Zipporah, and where Jesus met a Samaritan woman. So it has connotations as a place where the male and female aspects come together for spiritual sustenance, life-giving water. It’s where we go to satisfy that longing that we all feel inside.
   
David: So, it’s supposed to be a point of transformation. But here, it says “there is nothing in the well.”
   
Gene: So, the implication is that they, or we, are looking in the wrong place.
   
David: Yes. Where is the well these days? Where do people gather around and look for their spiritual, and other, needs to be satisfied?
   
Gene: Cell phones, computers and TV, Tik-Tok, Facebook, Instagram and X, among others.
   
David: Yeah. It’s funny, one the first online gathering places was called “The Well, “ which was created by Stewart Brand and Larry Brilliant in 1985. And it’s not like those places today are completely empty, but for the most part they are, or at least full of distractions.
   
Gene: It’s hard to separate the wheat from the chaff there.
   
David: It is. But the main point in regards to this saying, is that, the ultimate answers we’re looking for, can’t be found in those places.
   
Gene: They’re not “out there” somewhere, but inside.
   
David: And that is a point of transformation, when you really make that realization that most of the things we pursue are tangential, they’re side tracks, that lead us away from the real work, which is on ourselves.
   
Gene: And no one has the answer to that mystery but you, and you have to find it.
   
David: Right, you have to find that wellspring inside yourself and learn how to draw from it.
   
Gene: Very good. Saying 75 - ”Jesus says: Many are standing before the door, but it is the solitary ones who will enter the wedding hall."
   
David: It’s interesting how this saying relates to the last one. The well was a place for men and women to meet. Here it’s a door, which is again, like a portal between two realms. There’s the wedding hall on one side and those who are waiting to get in, on the other side.
   
Gene: Which makes me think of the third Rosicrucian Manifesto - “The Chemical Wedding,” which was published in 1616. It describes the “Sacred Marriage” in the wedding hall as a symbol for the culminating act of alchemical transformation - the union of the male and female polarities within one’s self.
   
David: And those who are admitted into that space, the wedding hall, to consummate that experience, are the “solitary ones.”
   
Gene: The hermits.
   
David: In a sense. Those who can stand alone, which we’ve discussed what that means. Those who have become whole.
   
Gene: Again, it’s like a self-locking mechanism. The door opens for those who are “worthy,” meaning those who have done the interior work.
   
David: The ones here have found the door, because you have to know where it is - inside you, not out here somewhere, but then you have to find the key to open the door. The key being the mystery that each individual has to solve, for themselves.
   
Gene: And as they say, someone may be able to lead you to the door, but you have to walk through it… no one can do that part for you.
   
12:18 Sayings 76-78
   
David: No. Alright. Saying 76 is the biblical story called the “Pearl of Great Price,” in which “Jesus says: The kingdom of the Father is like a merchant who had merchandise and found a pearl. That merchant is prudent. He sold the goods (and) bought for himself the pearl alone. You too look for his treasure, which does not perish, (and) which stays where no moth can reach it to eat it, and no worm destroys it."
   
Gene: It’s what the people are looking for down in the well, the one thing that gives life meaning and purpose. It’s the means of fulfilling that longing that we all feel - the “God-shaped hole,” that we’ve talked about before.
   
David: Yeah. Also, I like the symbolism of the pearl. It’s a luminous sphere, born in the watery depths, created through friction, or irritation, from a grain of sand.
   
Gene: So, it’s formed from something insignificant, and easily ignored, but, through a hidden process, it becomes a treasure. It’s again, talking about the divine spark and the process of cultivating it.
   
David: Right. And the saying is emphasizing that we have to consciously realize the worth of that treasure, and make material sacrifices, to turn away from fleeting things, and seek the imperishable.
   
Gene: With Gnosis being the discovery of the hidden treasure… your awakening.
   
David: Exactly. Saying 77 - “Jesus says: I am the light that is over all. I am the All. The All came forth out of me. And to me the All has come. Split a piece of wood – I am there. Lift the stone, and you will find me there.’”
   
Gene: Jesus is obviously speaking here not as a historical person, but as the “Divine Logos,” the omnipresent unity that permeates all apparent diversity.
   
David: Right. The organizing principle behind material forms - that it says all things come from and return to, which refers to the Pleroma, which means “fullness,” or “all.”
   
Gene: It makes me think of “Pan,” whose name in Greek means “all.” In Greek myth, Pan was described as being an all-pervading force in the world.
   
David: Hence, the term pan-psychism, which you could say that this saying is describing. It’s where all things, down to the molecular level, or the quantum level, possess some form of consciousness, or inherent organization, however you want to say it.
   
Gene: And it uses as symbols - a piece of wood, something organic and very basic, and a rock, something inorganic.
   
David: Yeah, it’s interesting that you have split the wood or lift the stone, to find the underlying truth
   
Gene: Meaning that the essence that we are seeking, is not found on the surface of things. It takes effort on our part to reveal it.
   
David: It does. Ok. Saying 78 - “Jesus says: Why did you go out to the countryside? To see a reed shaken by the wind, and to see a person dressed in soft clothing [like your] kings and your great/powerful persons? They are dressed in soft clothing and will not be able to recognize the truth."
   
Gene: In the Bible, that saying is interpreted as talking about the people going out to see John the Baptist.
   
David: Which obscures the esoteric meaning. The countryside is meant to refer to the “outdoors,” the spaces outside yourself.
   
Gene: So looking outside yourself, as opposed to inside.
   
David: Right. And the “reed shaken in the wind” is the transient nature of things out here in the world - the only constant is change.
   
Gene: And the part about people dressed in “soft clothing,” not being able to “recognize the truth,” makes me think about how the pearl gets formed by friction inside a hard shell. It’s like without the internal irritation, the “Persecution in your heart,” from Saying 69, and a willingness to expose yourself to the harsh realities of life, you’ll never be able to cultivate your pearl.
   
David: That’s good. The people in “soft clothes,” are us when we seek comfort to insulate ourselves from the truth, by clothing ourselves in material comforts and illusions. Which is easy to do in an age where many of us, live like kings, or better than kings used to live really.
   
Gene: But we still find a way to complain.
   
David: That’s true. Some things never change.
   
Gene: Yeah.
   
David: Are you ready for the next one?
   
16:39 Sayings 79-81
   
Gene: Sure. Saying 79 - “A woman in the crowd said to him: ‘Hail to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that fed you.’ He said to [her]: ‘Hail to those who have heard the word of the Father (and) have truly kept it.’ For there will be (many) days when you will say: ‘Hail to the womb that has not conceived and to the breasts that have not given milk.’"
   
David: This is again a reference to the “virgin birth,” the spiritual conception of the “Divine Child.” Jesus is redirecting the woman away from praising the physical manifestation, him and his mother, and toward their own transformation.
   
Gene: Those who have “heard the word of the Father (the Logos), and have truly kept it,” meaning they’ve cultivated it within themselves.
   
David: So again, he’s pointing out misdirected attention. We are told over and over to look inside, not outside. Not to external authorities, but to the inner part of ourselves, the spark, that we need to tend to.
   
Gene: Correct. Um… Saying 80 is basically a repeat of Saying 56 about the world being a “dead body” or a “corpse.”
   
David: And we won’t repeat all of that. If you’re interested, look back at our discussion of Saying 56, in the previous episode.
   
Gene: Alright. Saying 81 - “Jesus says: Whoever has become rich should be king. And the one who has power should renounce (it)."
   
David: Rich here means one who has found the pearl, the connection to wholeness, or divinity. And it says that those people are worthy to become kings, meaning to assume the throne of their own psyche, their microcosm, their inner world.
   
Gene: And the last part that says those who have power “should renounce it,” is talking about worldly power and influence.
   
David: Right. Those who wear “soft clothes,” from Saying 78. It’s again saying that material concerns, in this case worldly power, is likely to interfere with the pursuit of the spiritual path of self-knowledge, and so, should be renounced.
   
Gene: It’s the same choice, as with many of the sayings, of where to direct your time, your attention, and your resources.
   
18:54 Sayings 82-84
   
David: That’s it. OK. Saying 82 - “Jesus says: The person who is near me is near the fire. And the person who is far from me is far from the kingdom."
   
Gene: It’s again talking about the “divine spark,” the inner flame, the divine pattern.
   
David: Yes.
   
Gene: So, the first thing for me is the symbolism of fire - it illuminates, it puts off heat, it purifies. You can cook with it, but if you’re not careful, it can burn you.
   
David: You have to know how to work constructively with fire, like a blacksmith, or as in alchemy, to use it as a tool of transformation.
   
Gene: So the message is once again, that you to find that inner fire, that spark, and tend to it, and try to pattern your life after it.
   
David: So that you can resemble it, which it calls “getting closer to,” the kingdom of the Father, the Pleroma, because you’re consciously aware of your connection to it.
   
Gene: And conversely, if you don’t attempt to embody the divine image, you remain far away from it, meaning that you’re not like it, so you don’t resonate with it.
   
David: Right. Saying 83 continues this theme - “Jesus says: The images are visible to humanity, but the light within them is hidden in the image. The light of the Father will reveal itself, but his image is hidden by his light."
   
Gene: So, the “image,” is the “Divine Logos,” that pattern that permeates all things.
   
David: And the “light of the Father,” is pure consciousness, that illuminates all images, but is also hidden by them. Consciousness is sort of like, the organ of spiritual or mental perception, so you don’t see it, you see with it.
   
Gene: It’s like what the priest says in the movie “John Dies at the End,” that you “can’t see your own eyeball.”
   
David: Exactly. You can’t stand outside of it and observe it. You might be able to dissolve yourself in it, in an altered state of consciousness.
   
Gene: Like the yogic state of Samadhi.
   
David: Right. And the next saying, continues on this same theme. Saying 84 - “Jesus says: When you see your likeness you are full of joy. But when you see your likenesses that came into existence before you – they neither die nor become manifest – how much will you bear?"
   
Gene: The first part is saying that when you see your own reflection, in your mind, or in the things that you create, it draws you in, and makes you feel alive and special - a special snowflake… to quote “Fight Club.”
   
David: Yeah. And the “image before you were born,” that is bornless and doesn’t die, is the divine pattern again. But here, it asks how much of that light we can bear to see… because it hurts to see how much we fall short of perfection.
   
Gene: And also how similar we all are, in terms of our hopes and dreams, and the trials and sufferings that we all face, just by being human.
   
David: Part of seeing that truth, is the recognition of our shared plight, what’s called “The Vision of Sorrow,” in some traditions. It’s really difficult to look straight on at what life is like, the trials, suffering and loss that we all face… you want to look away.
   
Gene: But to quote from “King Arthur: Legend of the Sword,” a true king doesn’t look away. You have to face the existential truth of what it means to be alive and human.
   
David: So basically, this saying is talking about two points of view - the individual view and the collective view. On an individual level, we are all special snowflakes. There is no one else with your special talents and unique perspective on the world.
   
Gene: That’s true.
   
David: But… the flip side of that is that, that applies to everyone else as well.
   
Gene:  Yeah. It’s the Kabbalistic perspective that on a cosmic level, we are the hands and fingers and mouths of God - each of us a different instance of the One.
   
David: Exactly. It’s sort of like life playing out all of the infinite possibilities of human experience and expression - through us, in order to view it from every possible angle. So in a sense, it’s like God trying to see his own eyeball.
   
Gene: I really like that! We are incarnating all the possible perspectives of consciousness attempting to know itself… to achieve it’s own form of Gnosis.
   
David: Which, if consciousness is immanent in our reality, which is the philosophy of Idealism, then God might have the same problem we do, not able to step outside of it to view it from the outside.
   
Gene: Wow! That’s an interesting thought. Ready for the next one?
   
David: Yes.
   
23:50 Sayings 85-87
   
Gene: Saying 85 - “Jesus says: Adam came from a great power and a great wealth. But he did not become worthy of you. For if he had been worthy, (then) [he would] not [have tasted] death."
   
David: First off, there are two Adams, which we discussed in the “Secret Gospel of John.” One was created in the “image and likeness of God,” and the other from the dust of the earth. This Saying refers to the first Adam, who was both male and female and so is the complete archetype, or pattern, of humanity.
   
Gene: That Adam was created using the “great power,” that the Demiurge took from his mother, Sophia. And the “great wealth” is the Pleroma.
   
David: In the next part Jesus says - but “Adam was not worthy of you.”
   
Gene: So is he addressing the audience? Is he talking to us?
   
David: I thinks so. Adam is the divine pattern, but it’s not worthy, because it’s not been tested, like all of us have.  It’s just a plan. Like Saying 55 said - whoever “will not take up his cross as I do, will not be worthy of me.” The pattern has to be lived out, and brought to life, and basically, tried in the fires of the world.
   
Gene: So Adam had to “taste death,” to become worthy. Death being the sense of separation from God, the Pleroma. That’s his test - his blessing and his curse.
   
David: Right. Free will, but also separation - along with all the anxiety, trials and tribulations that brings. In Gnostic terminology - the “Son of God” has to die and be reborn as the “Son of Man.”
   
Gene: What do you mean by that?
   
David: The “divine pattern,” made in the “image and likeness of god,” the first Adam, is the one and only “Son of God,” - the pattern for all of humanity. And what we’ve been calling the “divine child,” that we have to conceive, is the “Son of Man,” that we… mankind, have to bring to life, through ourselves… in sort of a “virgin birth,” because it’s not physical.
   
Gene: Ah, very cool. Ready for the next one?
   
David: Yes.
   
Gene: Saying 86 - “Jesus says: [Foxes have] their holes and birds have their nest. But the son of man has no place to lay his head down (and) to rest."
   
David: It uses foxes, land creatures, and then birds, creatures of the air, to make the point that, they’re both completely adapted to, and at home in, the material world. Their consciousness is not divided between two worlds, like ours is.
   
Gene: But it says the “Son of Man,” is basically homeless.
   
David: Because we’re hybrid beings, God-like and animal-like. We’re part material, and part mental or spiritual - and we live in two worlds.
   
Gene: Which is why we feel restless, our consciousness is split between the two, or really, oscillating between the two - the “dual current.”
   
David: But, the saying says that the "Son of Man," meaning an awakened person, knows that this is not their home. Home is the kingdom, heaven, the Pleroma - where in this philosophy, we all come from and return to. Next one?
   
Gene: Sure. Saying 87 - “Jesus says: Wretched is the body that depends on a body. And wretched is the soul that depends on these two."
   
David: The “body that depends on a body,” is our physical body that depends on the material world for sustenance - food, air, water, shelter, etc.
   
Gene: And it is wretched sometimes. Especially for people that find themselves homeless, hungry or sick.
   
David: Very true. And the last part - “wretched is the soul (or mind) that depends on these two.”
   
Gene: It’s hard to do much mentally, or spiritually, when you’re in pain, tired, or hungry.
   
David: But it points toward the need for detachment, from material concerns, and from your body even, to minimize that mental or spiritual wretchedness.
   
Gene: Again, “in the world, but not of the world.” Don’t identify yourself with just the world of appearances. We’re more than that.
   
David: It pays to remember, that we are co-creators, not just passive observers, or worse, victims. We can shape the future by how we respond to circumstances and experiences.
   
Gene: We’re like sleep-walking magicians, most of the time… forgetful of the power we have to shape our reality, and the reality of those around us.
   
28:23 Sayings 88-90
   
David: I like that. Alright. The first part of Saying 88 is “Jesus says: The messengers and the prophets are coming to you, and they will give you what belongs to you.”
   
Gene: Esoterically, as we’ve said, messengers and prophets symbolize spiritual insights that come to us, seemingly from outside our conscious self. And it says that these messengers will give us what “belongs” to us, so it’s talking about parts of ourselves that we already own, but have forgotten.
   
David: And the second part says - “And you, in turn, give to them what you have in your hands (and) say to yourselves: ‘When will they come (and) take what belongs to them?’"
   
Gene: “What we have in our hands,” are the things we’re doing, our work, our creative output.
   
David: That in a sense, doesn’t belong to us, it belongs to them - because they’re based on insights we can’t claim credit for.
   
Gene: Which is a call-back to Saying 60 about how our egos are always trying to steal the credit. So it’s saying that we should do our work, and art, as selflessly as we can, without the expectation of a reward.
   
David: Exactly - just try to make it reflect the truth. OK. Saying 89 - “Jesus says: Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Do you not understand that the one who created the inside is also the one who created the outside?"
   
Gene: That’s talking about outer spiritual observances or practices versus inner work.
   
David: And also, the non-duality of reality - that there’s a unity behind all apparent diversity… even inside and outside.
   
Gene: It’s like looking at things from a fourth dimension, like in the novel “Flatland,” the duality of inside and outside dissolves.
   
David: Because it's a view from the perspective of that single underlying reality. We’ve talked about how we were all at one time a single cell - a zygote. It’s easier to see how the outside, our body, evolved, than the inside, our mind and consciousness… but somehow it did. Anything else on that one?
   
Gene: One more thing, it talks about cleaning the outside, which is working on appearance, how we look, or how things look, versus cleaning the inside, how things really are.
   
David: That’s good. Alright. Saying 90 - ”Jesus says: Come to me, for my yoke is gentle and my lordship is mild. And you will find repose for yourselves."
   
Gene: I thought that one was strange, because we’ve been talking all along about how difficult it is to follow the path of self-knowledge. You constantly have to push back against the world.
   
David: I think that is the comparison, the harshness of the material world, as opposed to the “mildness,” of mental rulership.
   
Gene: Also, the symbolism of the “yoke,” which is a way to control the movement of oxen, relates to the spiritual part of us, that “still small voice,” directing and channeling our animal nature.
   
David: Which involves finding, and opening a dialog with that part of yourself. Next one?
   
31:34 Sayings 91-92
   
Gene: Alright. Saying 91 - “They said to him: ‘Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you.’ He said to them: ‘You examine the face of sky and earth, but the one who is before you, you have not recognized, and you do not know how to test this opportunity.’"
   
David: They want to hear Jesus’ credentials instead of judging him based on their inner recognition of the truth of what he says.
   
Gene: And the part about looking at the “sky and earth,” instead of the “one who is before you,” is about looking outwardly, for meaning and purpose, which can only be found inside.
   
David: The basic message is about trusting, or at least testing, our inner authority, as opposed to relinquishing our authority to people who want to claim it to control us.
   
Gene: We also often seek external validation for the truths that we’ll only ever find when we stop doing that, and trust that there is something in us that knows the truth, we just have to remember that it’s there, and like you said, open a dialog with it.
   
David: That’s basically the “Western Mystery Tradition,” in a nutshell.
   
Gene: Yeah.
   
David: Alright, we’ve made it to the last saying. Saying 92 - “Jesus says: Seek and you will find. But the things you asked me about in past times, and what I did not tell you in that day, now I am willing to tell you, but you do not seek them."
   
Gene: This saying is talking about the timing of things. You have to ask questions at a time when you are ready to understand the answers.
   
David: It’s like a spiral. We loop back around to questions we’ve asked in the past, but when they come back around, we’re not the same person that we were the first time. We’ve been changed by our experiences.
   
Gene: So, it pays to go back to earlier questions and revisit them with new eyes and ears.
   
David: Yeah. Sometimes we aren’t ready to hear the answers. That process is symbolized by the celestial timing of alchemical operations. To create the “Philosopher’s Stone,” the operations have to be done in a specific sequence, and timed to the alignments of the planets and stars.
   
Gene: That alchemical process is the “Great Work” of personal transformation, with the celestial alignments corresponding to your mental states. You have to ask the right questions, at the right time.
   
David: Because our capability for understanding changes over time - hence, the spiral. We may come back to the same questions, but when the stars align, meaning that we’ve laid the proper foundation… mentally - then, we can get the answers we seek.
   
Gene: And another thing is that you have to keep asking and don’t give up. The promise is that if you keep seeking, you will find… just maybe not as quickly as you’d like to!
   
David: That’s been my experience.
   
Gene: Yeah.
   
David: Anything else?
   
Gene: Nope. I’m done.
   
34:34 Conclusions
    
David: Alright. Before we finish up, I want to again remind everyone about the “Show Notes,” which have references to the translation that we’re using, and links to other resources, which I hope can be of use for those doing their own research on the “Gospel of Thomas.” So Gene, what are your final thoughts?
    
Gene: I’m just more and more amazed by what we’re finding as go deeper into these texts. Like you said, it’s like a spiral. I’ve circled around many of these ideas for literally decades, but it’s like their meaning is opening up for me now… which I know is just because I’m a different person, with a different perspective. I’ve been changed by the process - that’s what’s different now.
    
David: Because it’s not a circular process. As the Greek philosopher Heraclitus said - “You can never step into the same stream twice.” 
    
Gene: I’ve been thinking about what Carlos Castaneda called “being impeccable,” by which he meant, keeping your eyes on the prize and not wavering in your determination to achieve it. You just have to keep going. In the face of all difficulties, just keep spiraling upward.
    
David: So - “We’ll ride the spiral, to the end. And may just go, where no one’s been.” That’s from “Lateralus,” by Tool.
    
Gene: Yeah. “Spiral out, keep going.”
    
David: Yes. Anything else?
    
Gene: No.
    
David: Alright, in our next episode, we’re going to cover the final 22 sayings, and will conclude our discussion, of the Gospel of Thomas.