01:15 Introduction
   
Gene: Hello Dave.
   
David: Hello Gene.
   
Gene: Happy Halloween.
   
David: Yeah, Happy Halloween everybody! You know, we started this podcast on Halloween, four years ago.
   
Gene: Wow. Time flies man.
   
David: It does. Anyway, as always, before we get started, I want to remind everyone that Show Notes, Chapter Markers, and Transcripts for all of our episodes are available on our website - WayOfTheHermit.com. In our last episode, we completed our four-part discussion of “The Trimorphic Protennoia,” “The Three Forms of First Thought.” And in this episode we begin a two-part discussion of another Gnostic text called “The Thunder, Perfect Mind.”
   
Gene: And this is the last text that we plan to cover this season.
   
02:00 Review
   
David: That’s right. But before we dive into the new text, I’d like to just quickly review how we got here. This is the fourth, and as we said, final text for this season. We started with “The Secret Gospel of John,” then we covered the “Gospel of Thomas,” and then the “Trimorphic Protennoia,” and now, “The Thunder, Perfect Mind.”
   
Gene: And each of those texts was from a different perspective. “The Secret Gospel of John,” was the big picture, top down, cosmological epic. It has the detailed mythology that you need to make sense of the others.
   
David: That’s true. It ends with the “Luminous Protennoia,” the Gnostic “Holy Spirit,” speaking to Adam. Her voice awakens him and breaks the hold that the Demiurge and Archons had on him, basically raising him from the dead.
   
Gene: And that “voice of awakening,” is spoken out loud, in the sayings of the “Living Word,” the resurrected Christ, in the next text we covered - the “Gospel of Thomas. In that text Jesus reveals to Thomas the secret teachings that he didn’t teach while alive.
   
David: And then, the “Trimorphic Protennoia,” the text we just finished, explains how the Mother, Voice, gives birth to the Word, the Son. But the Son, is an image of the Father, the underlying Thought.
   
Gene: And the first thought, Barbelo from “The Secret Gospel of John,” was described as having three forms. Hence the name “Trimorphic Protennoia,” which means “Three Forms of First Thought.” Those three forms are basically the Gnostic Trinity of Father, Mother and Son - or, Thought, Voice, and Word.
   
David: And that’s how the text was divided up - into three descents, going deeper each time, toward manifestation. The first descent was from the perspective of the Father aspect, the underlying thought of Unity. The second descent was told by the Mother aspect, associated with Voice.
   
Gene: Her Voice terrified the Archons, the established powers, and shook them to their foundations, because it came from a source they didn’t recognize, and it was saying things that terrified them, too. It was characterized as a “Dark Night of the Soul,” and also a gestation or pregnancy phase, when the old world was dying, with only the promise of a new one.
   
David: And that New Aeon, was described in the third descent which was from the perspective of the Son, the Word, born from the Mother of Aeons, who represents the birth of a new age of unity and non-duality - the “Unchanging Age.”
   
Gene: On a psychological level, the text describes the idea of Unity, working it’s way through our conditioned mental structures, the one’s we’ve constructed based on a view of ourselves as totally separate. In her third descent, the Protennoia taught that every person, every thought, every creature, every process of nature even, is one consciousness, wearing a different skin or mask.
   
David: So, the main idea is that, the creative force behind reality, is conscious and organized like a mind, and our minds are created in that image. So, through Gnosis, coming to know ourselves, and how our mind is structured, we come to know not only ourselves, but others, and within our limitations, we can come to know the creative force itself.
   
Gene: Which is the meaning of the lines from the “Emerald Tablet of Hermes” - “as above, so below, as within, so without.” Each is a reflection of the other. Like how each piece of a hologram contains the whole, but at a lower resolution.
   
05:44 The Thunder, Perfect Mind
   
David: It is like that. Anyway, that’s a quick review of how we got to this point - which brings us to the text that we’re going to start discussing today, “The Thunder, Perfect Mind.”
   
Gene: You know, I’ve heard about this text as being very similar to one of the Enochian transmissions to John Dee and Edward Kelly back in 1587.
   
David: That’s where I’ve heard of it, too. And actually, it was the very last of their scrying sessions together. According the Dee’s diaries, a spirit calling herself the “Daughter of Fortitude,” appeared to Edward Kelly and delivered a short address, that is eerily similar in it’s tone and in what it says, to this text.
   
Gene: It really is. And, “The Thunder, Perfect Mind,” only re-emerged in 1945. It was buried in the sand, since the 3rd or 4th century. The only known copy is from the discovery at Nag Hammadi. And like most of those texts, it’s in Coptic, probably copied from an earlier Greek text.
   
David: I’ve linked two English translations in the “Show Notes,” those of George W. MacRae and Willis Barnstone. We’re going to be mostly using the MacRae translation. OK, before we get into the text, I want to set the context that we’re using for it. The speaker in this text is the “Trimorphic Protennoia,” in her second form, the Voice not yet articulated, from the previous text.
   
Gene: And the title is very interesting, too - “The Thunder, Perfect Mind.”
   
David: It is. The first part, “The Thunder,” refers to the how the Voice shook the thrones of the seven Archons, which on a psychological level, refer to how the sayings that the voice delivers, cause a cognitive dissonance in the seven functions or processes of the mind.
   
Gene:  That’s because the Archons, as the story goes from “The Secret Gospel of John,” were built, by the Demiurge, on a foundation of separation. And on a psychological level, the Demiurge represents the Ego, not in communion with the whole Self.
   
David: And that communion, is what’s referred to in the second part of the title - “Perfect Mind.” First, there’s “The Thunder,” the Apocalypse, that topples the structures of the old world view. That destruction opens the way for the New Aeon of Unity to emerge, ruled over by the undivided Self, which it calls, “Perfect Mind.”
   
Gene: And the way the Voice goes about her destruction and construction, is through the use what sounds like, paradoxes and enigmas, sort of like Zen Koans.
   
David: They are, but I think they work on your mind a little differently and are possibly more targeted.
   
Gene: Most Zen Koans seem enigmatic, but that’s from a viewpoint of separation. They’re supposed to shatter that illusion.
   
David: And I think, on one level, the sayings in this text do that. But I think more generally, they point out the spectrum that we measure reality on, and how our judgment of that spectrum is always limited by, and relative to, our point of view.
   
Gene: Indeed. You ready to dive in?
   
08:53 Prelude
   
David: Yes. “The Thunder, Perfect Mind” begins with - “I was sent forth from the power, and I have come to those who reflect upon me, and I have been found among those who seek after me. Look upon me, you who reflect upon me, and you hearers, hear me.”
   
Gene: “She’s on a mission from God.” No seriously, she starts off stating her spiritual lineage, her credentials, and then says you should listen to what she says.
   
David: She’s offering an invitation to those to reflect on her, those who are introspective, and those who seek her, meaning those who are engaged in the spiritual quest for self-knowledge and wholeness.
   
Gene: The last part says to “look upon” and “hear” her, which means to shift your attention inward, toward your inner world, because that’s where you can experience her directly, with your inner, or spiritual eyes and ears.
   
David: It’s for those with “eyes to see” and “ears to hear,” as many spiritual texts, say. Which means that you have to be prepared to receive the deeper meanings.
   
Gene: In this age of distraction, it requires real discipline to control our attention and maintain our presence. The “still small voice” that it’s talking about, is so easily drowned out by the “monkey mind” of our day to day anxieties, desires and other material concerns.
   
David: But the first step is to seek - “Seek and ye shall find.” You have to take the first step, turn your attention around, look inside, and reflect on what you find.
   
Gene: Then - “wash, rinse, repeat.”
   
David: Yeah. It’s a circulation. The next part says - ”You who are waiting for me, take me to yourselves. And do not banish me from your sight. And do not make your voice hate me, nor your hearing. Do not be ignorant of me anywhere or any time. Be on your guard! Do not be ignorant of me.”
   
Gene: That’s basically a warning about the fragility of the connection between us and God, psychologically, between the Ego and the whole Self. It’s saying that, for that connection to continue, it requires ongoing consent and acceptance.
   
David: And it lists three ways that our connection with Her could be damaged. By “banishing” her from sight, “hating” her voice, or being “ignorant” of her. Banishing means dismissing what she says as irrational or impractical. Hating her voice is like our Ego being hostile and attacking or ridiculing the deeper voice of wisdom we hear.
   
Gene: Sort of an escalation from banishing, you start internally chastising yourself, for even thinking such crazy thoughts!
   
David: Right. It causes inner conflict. And the last way of damaging the connection with Her was through ignorance - by forgetting Her, and by extension, our Self, and letting our awareness dim.
   
Gene: She says to “Be on your guard!” - to stay awake, to practice mindfulness, to be present and not forget yourself. “Be here now.” to quote Ram Dass.
   
David: That warning is intended to get your attention focused because she’s about to begin her teachings, which are intended to elevate the reader from a state of “ignorance,” - “agnosia” in Greek, to self-knowledge, Gnosis.
   
12:13 Alpha and Omega
   
Gene: And those teachings begin with her saying - “I am the first and the last. I am the honored one and the scorned one. I am the whore and the holy one. I am the wife and the virgin. I am (the mother) and the daughter. I am the members of my mother. I am the barren one and many are her sons.”
   
David: We talked last time about how the “Trimorphic Protennoia,” or Barbelo, as the pattern of all consciousness and the building block of mind. So that One consciousness is “first and last,” “wife and virgin,” all of those, in every instance it is the One consciousness looking out of different eyes.
   
Gene: These first sayings are like Zen Koans, they’re declarations of “coincidentia oppositorum,” unions of opposites. She’s saying that she is simultaneously in mutually exclusive categories… which your rational mind says can’t be true.
   
David: At first glance, it looks like an assault on your rationality.
   
Gene: Actually… after a while, it made my brain hurt.
   
David: Me, too. But it’s really multi-layered. I mean, think about it, are you first or last?
   
Gene: Well… “if you ain’t first, you’re last.”
   
David: No, no, no, no… no! Sometimes you’re first. Sometimes you’re last. Sometimes you’re honored. Sometimes you’re honored.
   
Gene: Yeah.
   
David: Sometimes you’re honored. It’s talking about success and failure, reputation, and status. At one time, you’re a daughter or a son, and later, you’re a mother or a father. At one time, without children, but later, with children. The riddle is - what is the common denominator? What is the constant in all of those apparent identities?
   
Gene: You… the real you. “Wherever you go, there you are.”  It’s always you, wearing masks.
   
David: Right. And, as we talked about last time, at a deeper level, she’s wearing you. All of those apparent identities are really qualities - things we experience. She represents the consciousness within us that experiences those contradictory qualities, and all points in between.
   
Gene: I like that. Ready for the next part?
   
David: Yes.
   
Gene: OK. “I am she whose wedding is great, and I have not taken a husband. I am the midwife and she who does not bear. I am the solace of my labor pains. I am the bride and the bridegroom, and it is my husband who begot me. I am the mother of my father and the sister of my husband and he is my offspring.”
   
David: That one starts off like the one before it, a person can be married or unmarried… act as midwife, but not have children themselves. But, it’s worded differently, and in a way that draws you in to interpret the symbols.
   
Gene: Yeah, it’s not disconnected sayings. The central theme is a “wedding,” which makes you think of the “Sacred Marriage,” of uniting with yourself, making yourself whole.
   
David: And so the “husband” it’s talking about is not an external partner.
   
Gene: No - esoterically, it’s always you. There is no other. It’s an androgenous union - you’re both bride and bridegroom, the lover and the beloved. The union that we seek is with our own deeper self.
   
David: And, when you view her as the basis of both ends of that spectrum, as lover and beloved as masks she puts on, from that perspective, she is “midwife,” in that she assists with the “birth,” of her own becoming. She’s at once the womb that all things pass through, but she remains untouched by the material, so in a sense, she’s “barren.”
   
Gene: Which is why she’s called both virgin and whore. Which was one of the statements in Dee and Kelly’s “Daughter of Fortitude” Enochian transmission. It associates her with the Sephirah Binah on the Kabbalistic “Tree of Life,” which we’ve talked about before.
   
David: Right. The part about her “solace” must come from within herself, is because there is no other to console her. It’s all her.
   
Gene: And the last part drills that home, where it says - “it is my husband who begot me. I am the mother of my father and the sister of my husband and he is my offspring.” It’s recursive.
   
David: It’s the One consciousness viewing itself from every possible relationship - Daughter, Mother, Father, Sister, Brother, and Son.
   
Gene: Alright, alright, alright. Ready for the next part?
   
16:47 Sound and Silence
   
David: Yeah. The next part says - ”I am the slave of him who prepared me. I am the ruler of my offspring. But he is the one who begot me before the time on a birthday. And he is my offspring in (due) time, and my power is from him. I am the staff of his power in his youth, and he is the rod of my old age. And whatever he wills happens to me.”
   
Gene: She goes from slave to ruler, and back to dependent again.
   
David: It’s sort of like the riddle of the Sphinx to Oedipus - “What walks on four legs in the morning, two legs at noon, and three legs in the evening?”
   
Gene: The answer being mankind, who crawls on all fours as a baby, walks on two legs as an adult, and then with a cane, or staff, in old age.
   
David: It’s recounting the descent of the “Trimorphic Protennoia,” from the one who “prepared her,” the Monad, the Father, she being the “first thought.” Then she gives birth to the Son, the Word, who is an image of an father, that she supports in his youth, but who she acts through in his maturity, with the Son eventually replacing the Father at the end with her saying - “whatever he wills happens to me.”
   
Gene: So its a cycle, a circulation.
   
David: And, it also describes the relationship between the Ego and the whole Self. The Ego thinks it’s the ruler, but it’s actually the slave of the unconscious Self, ruled by unconscious impulses, until it matures and can consciously birth a rational structure.
   
Gene: That makes sense of the part about being born “before time” and on a “birthday.” It’s our initial sense of Self emerging out of that timeless state before our Ego forms - our “Spiritual Birthday.”
   
David: And esoterically, it’s describing our circulation of consciousness. Our mind births thoughts that, that, by thinking those thoughts, changes the state of our mind, the ground that thoughts are coming out of.
   
Gene: As Heraclitus said “You can never step in the same stream twice.” It’s the cycle of life, things are born, they live, they die and become part of the earth again - “ashes to ashes, dust to dust.”
   
David: Right. In the symbols of the saying - the Son contains the seed of the Father, but has been changed by the process of life - gaining knowledge and experience. And then the Son becomes the new Father, the new mind, the new ground that thoughts emerge from.
   
Gene: It describes how our stream of consciousness operates on a continual basis. It’s a feedback loop that feeds on itself.
   
David: And a good symbol of that process, is the Ouroboros, the serpent swallowing it’s own tail. Our mind normally runs a self-sustaining loop where the output of the previous cycle feeds back into the next cycle of activity.
   
Gene: And again - “Wash. Rinse. Repeat.” It’s a cycle… a circulation - what we’ve been calling the “Dual Current.” But it’s also the final Heh of Yod-Heh-Vau-Heh, that becomes the beginning Heh, of a new cycle.
   
David: That’s a good analogy. The next part says - “I am the silence that is incomprehensible, and the idea whose remembrance is frequent. I am the voice whose sound is manifold and the word whose appearance is multiple. I am the utterance of my name.”
   
Gene: That’s a restatement of the “Trimorphic Protennoia.” The “incomprehensible Silence,” is the Father, pure undifferentiated consciousness, whose “remembrance is frequent” - which is, like we just said, our stream of consciousness, which is pretty much continuous while we’re awake, unless we interrupt it in some way.
   
David: Then it goes on to the Voice, the Mother, “whose sound is manifold.” She’s how the One becomes the Many, through the image of the Father that she reflects. It’s like how one Thought might get split into many different qualities to describe it. And finally, it comes to the Son, the Word “whose appearance is multiple.” The Word being the manifestation, of the manifold reflections, of the Voice.
   
Gene: That last statement is pretty cool - “I am the utterance of my name.”
   
David: It is cool. It’s saying that she’s not only the one who utters her name, she is the utterance. It’s the ultimate self reference. Because she represents consciousness itself - every Word, is actually her naming herself.
   
21:20 Love and Hate
   
Gene: That’s true. The next part says - “Why, you who hate me, do you love me, and hate those who love me? You who deny me, confess me, and you who confess me, deny me. You who tell the truth about me, lie about me, and you who have lied about me, tell the truth about me.”
   
David: That made me think of the Taoist saying about speaking about the ultimate reality - “He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know.” There is a point in talking about infinity and eternity that our minds can’t grasp. At that point, there is nothing left to say, because words can’t convey it.
   
Gene: That’s true. I read it as being about being sincere versus being a hypocrite. People who confess to being the most spiritual, often have some nasty demons hiding in their closets. They may be obsessed with spirituality, because it’s something they struggle with.
   
David: Which leads to people projecting their own unconscious fears and desires onto other people. But, think about just the first part of that “Why, you who hate me, do you love me?” She’s already said, that she hides in everyone… which includes you. So… who’s the “you” and who’s the “me”?
   
Gene: Yeah.
   
David: I mean -  Love and Hate, Acceptance and Denial, Truth and Lies, are all movements of consciousness - they’re all still her in different forms.
   
Gene: But we can identify with those forms and get stuck. The truth it’s trying to get across, is that she is, and by extension, we are, the consciousness that observes, and experiences, those movements.
   
David: And the last part about when you tell the truth about her you lie, and vice versa - that relates to the concept of “negative theology” that says that applying any quality to the infinite would limit it, all you can say is what it’s not.
   
Gene: On a real basic level, I think it’s a warning not to overestimate your ability to grasp the infinite, and the incomprehensible, because in that context, things meet, and consume, their opposites.
   
David: True. Next part?
   
Gene: OK. The next part says - “You who know me, be ignorant of me, and those who have not known me, let them know me. For I am knowledge and ignorance. I am shame and boldness. I am shameless; I am ashamed. I am strength and I am fear. I am war and peace. Give heed to me.”
   
David: The first statement is a loop. If you “know her” then she says to be “ignorant of her,” but those who don’t know her, she says they should “know her.”
   
Gene: Yeah.
   
David: So it’s a puzzle knot.
   
Gene: But she resolves it in the next statement that says that she is both “knowledge” and “ignorance.” She’s both poles and everything in between. From having “knowledge of” meaning direct experience, to ignorance, having no conception whatsoever.
   
David: She says the same about shame and boldness, strength and fear, war and peace. All of those relate to states that we can experience through her, because she is all of those things, and also the Witness consciousness, that experiences those things - the part of us that feels ignorant or knowledgeable, strong or afraid, bold or ashamed.
   
Gene: She’s the shapeshifter that morphs into all of those qualities. We sometimes forget our Self, and identify with one of them, but the truth is that we are all of those things at the same time.
   
David: Yeah. What appears at first glance to be paradoxes, are in fact, the human condition… which is, sort of a paradox.
   
Gene: So it’s really an invitation to realize and accept, or remember, our own wholeness.
   
David: It ends with her saying “Give heed to me.” Which, as we’ve said, is self-referential… it refers back to us. So, it’s saying - pay attention to what you really are, and you’ll see the truth, you’re all of those things.
   
Gene: With the message again being that you shouldn’t turn away from what you discover when you plumb the depths of yourself, but give heed to it, because it points the way toward wholeness.
   
25:46 Wealth and Poverty
   
David: It does. The next part says - “I am the one who is disgraced and the great one. Give heed to my poverty and my wealth.”
   
Gene: I think that it’s saying to “give heed” to her in all stations in life, because she, or the “Holy Spirit,” if you think of it that way, is in all people. Some people treat others differently based on their perceived status, relative to themselves. This is saying that she’s within the “honored” and the “disgraced”, the “wealthy” and the “poor,” and everything in between.
   
David: And on a personal level, as we said before, those are experiences we have, or we can have - being disgraced, being honored, being poor, being wealthy. So each of those seeming opposites are like opposite poles of a value range - from feeling honored, to feeling disgraced, from feeling poor to feeling wealthy.
   
Gene: But just saying “poor or “wealthy,” that’s so general. Poor or wealthy in what? Money? Friends? Or the one I like to stress - life experience?
   
David: Yeah, I see what you’re saying. The text is real high level. Each of those is just one facet of what makes up how we feel about ourself at any given moment.
   
Gene: And again, she’s saying to “take heed,” because it’s easy not to see those things in the moment.
   
David: That’s true. The next statement continues in this same vein. It says - “Do not be arrogant to me when I am cast out upon the earth, and you will find me in those that are to come. And do not look upon me on the dung-heap nor go and leave me cast out, and you will find me in the kingdoms.”
   
Gene: That is really similar to the last one. Outwardly, again, it’s saying don’t look down on people who are down on their luck. And both of those statements sort of hint, that if you do, you may miss out on opportunities - what it calls “those to come” and the “kingdoms.”
   
David: Thinking about it psychologically - it’s about not beating yourself up when you find yourself down and out, when you feel alone and “cast out upon the earth.”
   
Gene: And there’s another weirdness. You can feel “down and out,” “depressed,” and also “angry at yourself” for being depressed!
   
David: Right. Your mind can pull in different directions. Which is like Plato’s theory of the three part mind, where the spirited part, and the sensuous parts, are like two horses that have to be guided by the rational part, the Charioteer.
   
Gene: So, in your example, instead of identifying with the part of yourself that feels depressed, or the part that feels angry, you identify with the part that recognizes that you are experiencing both - the Witness. And on a practical level, that puts you in the best position to figure out what to do next.
   
David: That’s a good interpretation. The next statement is basically like the ones we just covered - “And do not look upon me when I am cast out among those who are disgraced and in the least places, nor laugh at me.”
   
Gene: That’s saying about the same thing as before.
   
David: Yeah, but the next one’s a little different. It says - “And do not cast me out among those who are slain in violence. But I, I am compassionate and I am cruel. Be on your guard!”
   
Gene: That could be talking about having compassion on people who suffer unjustly. But it’s weirdly worded. It says don’t cast her “out among those who are slain in violence.”
   
David: But if you think of her voice, still being inside your head, she’s saying don’t cast her out… don’t forget about her in your time of need - like for example, when you, or someone close to you, has been the victim of violence. It’s saying don’t disassociate. Stay present and stay whole.
   
Gene: But it’s weird how she follows that by saying “I am compassionate and I am cruel. Be on your guard!” - basically a warning.
   
David: That’s so you don’t get confused - she’s both. She is the one who suffers, and the one who inflicts the suffering. We suffer, and we sometimes inflict suffering on others. She is the capacity to experience joy and suffering, as well as the capacity to want to hurt people.
   
Gene: That makes me think of Isaiah 45:7 that says - “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
   
David: Exactly. Ready for the next part?
   
30:18 Power and Weakness
   
Gene: Yes. It says - “Do not hate my obedience and do not love my self-control. In my weakness, do not forsake me, and do not be afraid of my power.”
   
David: Again, that’s talking about two competing states - obedience versus choice and weakness versus power. And this time, it’s about not fixating on one or the other. It says don’t love one, and hate or fear the other.
   
Gene: It’s saying don’t identify with one or the other of these qualities, like “obedience,” or “power,” to the extent that you forget what you are in your essence. To quote Bruce Lee - “Be like water my friend.”
   
David: Actually Bruce Lee was quoting Lao Tzu.
   
Gene: I know. But anyway, it’s basically saying to “go with the flow”. And, it’s also pointing out that, all conflict is, in a very real sense, inner conflict. Your state of mind is based mainly on how you respond, to your responses. Sort of just “checkin’ in, to see what condition your condition, is in.”
   
David: Yeah - I guess you could see it that way. It’s again about being present and watching, inwardly, instead of immediately reacting and stirring up other thoughts and emotions - things that would take you out of the flow. I think it’s also about acceptance, of yourself and other people. Telling you not to hate others because they’re different, or yourself when you find parts that you can’t yet reconcile.
   
Gene: Because when you hate, or even have strong opinions, you can’t expect to be a reliable witness - it clouds your thinking.
   
David: It does. Next one?
   
Gene: Alright. The next part says - “For why do you despise my fear and curse my pride? But I am she who exists in all fears and strength in trembling. I am she who is weak, and I am well in a pleasant place. I am senseless and I am wise.”
   
David: Man, the more you think about these, the more layers there are. Just take the first part - “why do you despise my fear?” There’s “you” and “her” and her experience of fear, which I think is “your” experience of fear.
   
Gene: Right.
   
David: And then there’s her “judgement” of how you are responding to her fear. There’s always the three - the subject, the object, and the act of observation… with those three also composed of the same three - the recursive element that we’ve discussed.
   
Gene: That’s true. I liked the part where she is the “strength” to be found even in “fear” and  “trembling.” And in “weakness” she is “well” and in a “pleasant place.” It’s pointing out the magical power that our minds have to lift us out of our current circumstances. We can be “senseless,” meaning detached from the world, or “wise,” with full knowledge of it.
   
David: That passage draws together the strands that the text has laid out so far. It’s saying that if we don’t become fixated on one passion or another, or one particular state or another, then we won’t be inclined to stoke our own inner conflict, when we’re faced by adversity. And by stepping back like that, we put ourselves in a position to assert our true will.
   
Gene: That’s a good summary. Ready for the next one?
   
33:45 The Silent Counsel
   
David: Yes. The next part says - “Why have you hated me in your counsels? For I shall be silent among those who are silent, and I shall appear and speak, “Why (then) have you hated me, you Greeks? Because I am a barbarian among the barbarians?”  left out THEN
   
Gene: That’s a theme that starts here and carries on for the next few parts - the Greeks and the Barbarians. I think the term “barbarian” is used to refer to any people outside of Greek culture, the “uncultured” or “uncivilized,” the “heathens” or the “hetherns,” as we say in the South.
   
David: And those terms can apply to the socialized parts of ourselves versus the more unsocialized, or animalistic parts. So, it starts off saying “Why have you hated me in your counsels.”
   
Gene: A council being a gathering, like between the Greeks and the barbarians, the civilized and the uncivilized. She’s asking why the two sides can’t hear what the other is saying. That sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
   
David: It does, but I guess because it’s an archetype. The problem is the same as it always is - they speak different languages on the surface, but she’s what unites them underneath. She’s saying that cultural and religious heritage is another barrier to judging the voices we hear fairly, be they inner or outer voices.
   
Gene: She says she’s silent among the silent, the mystics, or those perhaps less educated, or those who don’t express themselves in that way, but she appears, and speaks, among the philosophers, and other “smooth talkers,” the ones that know how to use words to persuade.
   
David: And it calls out the Greeks, the civilized, the educated, for not being able to hear the barbarians, maybe because they look down on them, like she warned earlier not to do. She even calls herself a “barbarian among the barbarians.” I think that passage is a warning about creating an “us” versus “them” mentality.
   
Gene: Right. Like she says in the “Trimorphic Protennoia” - she always speaks in a language suitable to the hearer, what they are capable of hearing. And she really doesn’t even need words, because she’s the “voice whose sound is manifold.” She also speaks in thoughts, feelings, intuition, and dreams… and in the processes of nature.
   
David: And the next passage basically reinforces all of what we’ve been saying. It says - “For I am the wisdom of the Greeks and the knowledge of the barbarians. I am the judgement of the Greeks and of the barbarians. I am the one whose image is great in Egypt and the one who has no image among the barbarians. I am the one who has been hated everywhere and who has been loved everywhere.”
   
Gene: She’s the knowledge and wisdom of all cultures and religions, wisdom being distilled knowledge. So in essence, each culture or religion possesses an element of “Ultimate Truth,” but it’s always relative to a particular perspective. The point being that Universal Truth can’t be captured by a single culture or religious conception - it’s the sum of all of them.
   
David: The images and symbols behind the mystical traditions of all religions point toward the same truth, because it’s a shared spiritual heritage.
   
Gene:  That heritage being that we are One with a hidden underlying Unity, or non-duality. That is what they’re all pointing at… in various ways.
   
David: It says she’s the one who is symbolized, and the one that has no symbol. She’s what is ultimately referred to by every symbol, but there is no symbol for her… because she is the capacity to symbolize - the Logos - the rational mind, and what it’s composed of. Do you have anything else on this one?
   
Gene: Just the part about being the “judgment” of the Greeks and barbarians, meaning the judgment function in all people. And she said that she was “the one whose image is great in Egypt.” Those two things made me think of Maat, Goddess of Judgment, in Egyptian mythology.
   
David: And Maat is also the Goddess of Truth, in fact, she is the embodiment of Truth. I think she’s identifying herself with Maat.
   
Gene: Or at the least, it’s saying that if you’re able to view it, through the right cultural lens, Maat is as good a symbol as any, to wrap your head around what “Universal Truth” means.
   
David: That’s well said.
   
38:25 Life and Death
   
Gene: Thanks. The next line ties in with that same idea of Maat as the preeminent symbol of law and order. It says - “I am the one whom they call Life, and you have called Death. I am the one whom they call Law, and you have called Lawlessness.”
   
David: That makes me think of the saying from Jesus - "whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” Which is basically a statement of the relationship between the Ego and the whole Self. It’s talking about initiatory death.
   
Gene: There’s also a subtle shift. She says - “I am the one whom THEY call Life, and YOU call Death. There’s a “you” and a “them” and a “her” that stands apart and is observed and named. No matter what you call her… she’s the truth behind all symbols and words.
   
David: She can’t be boxed in by categories.
   
Gene: Right. The next part says - “I am the one whom you have pursued, and I am the one whom you have seized. I am the one whom you have scattered, and you have gathered me together.”
   
David: She’s saying that she is the “seeker, what is “sought,” and what you’re able to grasp, meaning that she’s also the “capacity to seek.” It’s through that capacity that you’re able to “gather up,” what’s been “scattered.”
   
Gene: Which refers to the dual capacities of the mind to analyze and to design, to divide, to take things apart mentally into their component parts, and to combine them back together into unique configurations. That’s the alchemical principles of “solve” and “coagula.”
   
David: Or esoterically, to reassemble the scattered parts of ourselves and reassemble them, like the Osiris myth.
   
Gene: “Pulling ourself together,” so to speak.
   
David: Yeah.
   
Gene: Are you ready for the last one?
   
David: I am.
   
Gene: OK. It says - “I am the one before whom you have been ashamed, and you have been shameless to me. I am she who does not keep festival, and I am she whose festivals are many.”
   
David: What this made me think of is that - there is a part of consciousness that sees everything we do. It’s aware and keeps us alive, while we sleep. And it raises us back out of that state when we wake up.
   
Gene: And what you’re saying is that, the deepest part of consciousness, the core of our identity, has actually seen us ashamed, and shameless, and also, at one time or another, it’s seen us in all the other conditions that we’ve found ourselves in throughout life.
   
David: Right. You may be able to disassociate, and see yourself as either-or and not both, but the deepest part of you, the true judge, the Witness consciousness that is symbolized by Maat, that part knows the truth.
   
Gene: It does. And the last sentence, is about the fact that, whether or not the Universal Truth is celebrated with festivals, or completely forgotten, we all still worship at her altar.
   
David: She’s basically the Wheel of the Year, and whether celebrated or not, all Festivals are Festivals to Her. Anything else?
   
Gene: No, that’s all I’ve got.
   
41:40 Conclusions
    
David: Alright. Before we end, I’d want to again remind everyone, that I’ve included links to books, translations, notes and other resources related to our discussion today, in the episode Show Notes. So Gene, what are your final thoughts?
    
Gene: My final thoughts… I’m calling this one “The Thunder, Perfect Headache!”
    
David: Why is that?
    
Gene: I think it’s called “The Thunder” because it makes your head hurt to think about it. It starts off stating that she is two opposite things, which if you try to hold two opposite things in your mind, and try to make yourself believe they’re both true - it sort of hurts… it’s like it’s wired not to do that.  So, that’s what you see at first - “oh… ok - she’s ALL the opposites. Non-duality. Got it.” And you think you’ve wrapped your head around it… sort of. But then, the tone of the text changes, and she starts being accusatory, and drawing you into the argument, like you have to defend yourself… then you realize there’s another level - she is you. So what is she really saying when she says “YOU did this to ME”?
    
David: That’s when you realize that what seemed like paradoxes that your mind can’t tolerate, is the truth about who we really are, or at least what we’re capable of.
    
Gene: Some of us are just much better at compartmentalizing than others… or what you’ve been calling “disassociating.”
    
David: It’s like when she says - “I am compassionate and I am cruel. Be on your guard!” - you should picture yourself saying that.
    
Gene: Wow.
    
David: You know.
    
Gene: Yeah.
    
David: Because that’s what the text is saying. She’s not an external entity. She’s you, me, everyone, everything. She’s our capacity to act in a human way, which is not all kind and peaceful, or it shouldn’t be, it can’t be.
    
Gene: No. The Kabbalistic saying is, that unmitigated severity is cruelty, and unmediated mercy is weakness. It isn’t just what you do, it’s also the context, within which you do it.
    
David: That’s what makes doing the quote-unquote “right thing” such a problem. There isn’t just a set of rules to follow, it’s a constant need to be present in the moment and respond in what you feel like at the time, is the “right thing.” 
    
Gene: And another thing, is that when you engage with the dialog, you start to see how many different ways we limit ourselves, through expectations, about finances, status, power, culture, religion - we sort of go around half-blind.
    
David: To quote Dr. John C. Lilly - “In the province of the mind, what one believes to be true either is true or becomes true within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended, and in the province of the mind, there are no limits.”
    
Gene: I love that quote. But… having said that the text hurt my head, I’ll have to say that it was ultimately… mind-expanding. 
    
David: I would say that, too… and, so far, it lives up to it’s name - “The Thunder, Perfect Mind.” It shakes you up, and expands your mind, by reminding you of the full range of human experience… our spiritual heritage.
    
Gene: And it’s a reminder not to identify with the experiences that we have, but to step back and realize our Self as the One having the experience.
    
David: Ultimately, it’s the One consciousness, having an experience of itself. Alright. Gene, what are we doing next time?
    
Gene: In our next episode, we will complete the discussion of “The Thunder, Perfect Mind.”🪶